Now I am Convinced that Hi-Viz is Bunk

[rustynail]

I am a Marine who works on a Naval base. This is important background because of regulations. The Marine Corps stopped requiring personnel to wear hi viz reflective vests a couple of years ago. The Navy still requires that garment during hours of darkness.

As we approach winter and daylight savings time is still in effect, it has been getting light out later and later. The gate guard threatened to turn me around the other day for not wearing a vest, so I dug out my old lime green vest with 2 inch strips of Scotch-lite sewn in. I wore it to work today.

This afternoon, I put my jacket back on to ride home with the vest still attached. On the short ride, a lady in an Odyssey PULLED RIGHT OUT IN FRONT OF ME! This is only the second time in all my years of riding I grabbed the binders HARD. The only thing that really saved me was my situational awareness. I saw it coming and slowed a bit, but when she appeared to look RIGHT AT ME, I started to accelerate again. She pulled out and then stopped right in front of me. She then mouthed the words; "I'm sorry." I was getting ready to scream at her, but she looked so horrified, I knew nothing I could say would be beneficial. She rolled down her window and said, you guessed it, "I didn't see you."

I have stated here before that the other time I really grabbed the binders was when the Corps still required us to wear a vest...

I am convinced now more than ever that if they aren't really looking, and I mean looking - they simply won't see you. I don't care if you wear a light up Tron suit.

Be safe out there.

[Daboo]

Sounds like SMIDSY.

The temptation is to get really upset...but then I think of the times when I've done something really stupid and wished I could sink out of sight.

Chris

[rustynail]

Yeah, I'm glad I didn't yell at her. I would have regretted that.

[dsweet]

Yes, you are right. Nothing you could have said or done would have made her feel any worse than she already felt.
I suspect that after that close call she will be a more attentive driver, at least for a little while.
ds

[convertfromVespa]

I wear black as to not show stains. Visibility for the most part has not been an issue. Most of the time, when I have been hit, the person was behind me at a stop, was distracted and then ran into me.

[GeeGusKahn]

RustyNail

don't give up on the vest or any other safety equipment.

The vest is a tool like so many others.
Don't wear Hi Vis and I know it won't work.
Wear it!
It may work 99.9 times out of a 100, and you don't even know that someone saw you because of it.

You said you were a Marine.
If you get transferred to a combat zone, do you wear your body armor??
Does wearing body armor guarantee you won't get injured or worse??
No - it does not guarantee anything, but it sure improves the odds.

So you and others that think the Hi Vis is a waste should not give up on it so quick.

just my 2 cents and rant.

[Bluebottle]

Hi-Viz can be a big plus in your favour.

Once in low light I caught some movement out of the corner of my eye and turned to see a cyclist wearing a high viz vest. What I hadn't seen was the rider in front of him in drab clothes.

I wasn't driving, I was trying to photograph some bad tempered wildlife, so I was distracted butcautious of any movement- just like some drivers are, if I had been a driver that might have been enough to save his skin (or not in the case of the guy in front).

That was enough to convince me. Even if I am nipping to the shops I wear a high viz air-bag vest.

[rustynail]

I went many years w/o the hi viz and the one day I wear it someone pulls out in front of me...

I also know correlation does not prove causation. Its just a funny coincidence.

[RussL]

You said you were a Marine.
If you get transferred to a combat zone, do you wear your body armor??
Does wearing body armor guarantee you won't get injured or worse??
No - it does not guarantee anything, but it sure improves the odds.


As a retired Green Beret who did 9 tours in the Nam,,, never wore armor... it was not that good,,, got shot a few times but that goes with the business...

The city streets are far more dangerous than the jungle...

[rustynail]

My old stuff was lighter but only a flak vest. My new vest is around 50 freaking pounds, depending on how it is configured! I would trade some protection for mobility. Most Marines feel this way too. But we have a nanny state. I know a few Marines who died in canals in Iraq because they couldn't get out of the HMMWV or MRAP and swim to the surface.

And you can't really equate the two. A hi viz vest is an active safety measure (tries to prevent an accident) and body armor is passive (protects after the "accident" occurred).

I've never been much for active safety, other than training and awareness, hence my dislike for ABS, traction control, hi viz, etc...

[Daboo]

When I first started riding back in England in 1980, I used a yellow USAF rain jacket. I got the Fab shop to sew reflective tape on it. Back then, no one was doing it, but it seemed smart. When I started riding again recently, I found some construction worker hi-vis vests that did the job well. I knew it stood out when I saw another rider with the same vest come up behind me, and then after he passed me in traffic I could still see him for another half mile or so till he went around a bend. Nothing else in the traffic stood out, but him.

At other times, I've been riding down side residential roads and have had busy Moms pull up in a hurry to a cross road stop sign. One especially comes to mind since she was on her cell phone and obviously distracted just by looking at her. You could see her look, then look again and focus right on me. When I look back on the last 66,000 miles in the last few years, I can count probably 6 times I've hit my brakes hard...and two of those were for a squirrel and a deer.

When I replaced my "run-over-me" black jacket and helmet, one of the top criteria was that it be "don't-hit-me" hi-vis. If it wasn't, I wasn't wasting my time looking any closer at it.

Chris

[Gio]

The problem with Hi vis here in the UK is that everyone has it on, so nothing stands out as it once did during daylight hours. Builders on building sites, Police officers, Local Government workers from grass cutters to park attendants and truck drivers all have Hi vis bibs and jackets. That is the problem we are creating, everyone wears it so we all become blind to it and fail to recognise it and anything unusual. Couple that with the human problem that our eyes and brain fail to identify the approaching object if it is in align with a background object. It is not especially due to lack of attentiveness on the side of the driver who is about to pull out but a weakness in all our makeup that makes it happen because we cannot pick the bike out from the background, hi vis or no hi vis. I admit that during failing light / night riding, the Hi vis does come into its own more often than not due to the scotchlite stripes that catch the drivers eye.

see SMIDSY link http://youtu.be/eqQBubilSXU Sorry Mate I Didn't See You

[Marv]

I wear black as to not show stains. Visibility for the most part has not been an issue. Most of the time, when I have been hit, the person was behind me at a stop, was distracted and then ran into me.

That is why I installed a LED flashing stop light. It's very very bright and flashes in your face. It really gets your attention. At a stop light it seems the cars are leary of me and don't come close.

[MacDoc]

Passive simply does not work consistenly tho it may help ..flipping the rather strong high beams on the Burgman up as you slowed - THAT would likely have made her notice you.

It's the change up to the high beams that works.
I will hit the horn in those situations as well as the high beams.

Don't ever flash them - flip the high beam up and leave it up until the situation clears.

[rustynail]

I grabbed the "flash to pass" button and held that... I really think she just wasn't looking.

Some people just go through the motions.

I saw a special on PBS many years back that compared how people look for things. The brain plays such a huge role in vision. The point of one segment was that if you don't see the mental image of what you are looking for, you will pass right over it. Think of looking for the ketchup in the pantry - if the bottle is turned, you can swear that it ain't there. But then the wife comes over and grabs it right in front of you...

Imagine a woman sitting in an Odyssey at an intersection looking for a car coming - get my point? She's looking for the wrong threat, and pulls right out in front if you. Her brain compromised her scan for a threat.

[Buffalo]

Sometimes hi viz and lights will work and sometimes they won't. It really depends on the person on the receiving end. If they are driving along with their attention on something other than their driving nothing will get their attention. I've seen cars pull out in front of fire trucks with all their lights and noise makers going. If that doesn't get their attention then nothing you can do on your bike will. You just have to assume they will not see you and be ready to avoid them.

[Scootereno]

+1 Buffalo

I don't get it I guess. Every motorcycle safety course teaches you to ride as if your invisible and I swear by it (I've never seen Hi-Vis invisibility) . I saw 3 bike accidents last year and all 3 riders were wearing hi-vis colors and were riding during the day. At night Hi-Vis is useless if not in a well lit area because all colors are gray at night/dark. Reflectivity or lighting is the only way to be notice more at night. Drivers are not as aware of us as they should be and some are just not aware at all. So wear whatever color you want but don't tell me it "saved your life" I can't buy it. Protection, awareness, training/experience and proper reaction saves lives (a bit of luck can always help). I ride like I am invisible, I ride trying to have a better chance of being noticed, I stay hyper aware, I wear protection, and carry my lucky talisman. Since I rode my first motorized bike in 1970 until now the only accidents I have had were my fault but the near misses I've had could easily have been accidents if I didn't ride this way. Thankfully you were aware enough to see the potential for a hazard and were able to stop quickly and controlled to avoid the lady. I just wonder if she would have noticed you if you were not wearing the Hi-Vis vest? If it makes you feel safer though then do what you need to do because feeling safe allows you to concentrate better on everything else that's important.
Ride Safe and Have Fun.

PS.- I'm off to ride...hope no one sees me.

[Wes_Ingram]

The distracted driver is the most dangerous, they see almost nothing! Cell phones just make it worse.
Be safe out there and be aware!

[Brian650]

A small boy was going around the block beating his drum loudly. "What are you doing?" A neighbor asked him (one presumes in a rather irritated manner). "I am keeping the lions and tigers away" the boy proudly replies.

"But this is the big city, there are no lions or tigers in this city!"

Without hesitation the boy exclaims "Works doesen't it!"

I wear hi-viz for the simple reason that I will never know, with any degree of certainty WHEN it works. I see a car start to pull out and then stop. Why? I don't know. Hi-viz, headlight, running lights? Perhaps they dropped their cell phone - I will never know. But what I do know is something made them stop before they pulled in front of me.

I daily ride a road nortorious for serious rear end collisions. (Florida 98 between Fort Walton Beach and Navarre.) Last night I had to go back and there were two multi-vehicle rear enders in a five mile stretch. Will hi-viz help, will flashing my brake lights when I start to slow help? I don't know - but I do know that it may, and I also know that while it may not it can't hurt.

So I will continue to wear hi-viz, and a helmet, and gloves, and ride defensively - as I have done for many years, without any serious car/bike incident.

You mileage will, of course, vary.

[choirguy]

Hi-Viz is what I wear, like so many others, but after riding on the freeway, I'm convinced it only makes ME feel better about my visibility. The bright yellow, or whatever color we wear, will never be the thing that saves our hide--it'll be our overly-cautious awareness that virtually no one sees us out there. If they do see me, I just feel like that was dumb luck. Glad you're okay.
Tim

[blueberry]

Personally, I prefer to look like a neon bumble bee...loaded with body armor The majority of my riding time is in the dark. Going to n from work in the blackness. What I DO know is that come this time of year, drivers in Mn. do not expect to see, therefore they don't see a motorcycle... day or night.
David Hough in his book "Proficient Motorcycling" talks about managing risks in this very dangerous sport of motorcycling. That's all we can do is manage the risks.
How, what or wherever we (the rider) interpret the risk.

[QuantumRift]

....I put my jacket back on to ride home with the vest still attached. On the short ride, a lady in an Odyssey PULLED RIGHT OUT IN FRONT OF ME! This is only the second time in all my years of riding I grabbed the binders HARD. The only thing that really saved me was my situational awareness. I saw it coming and slowed a bit, but when she appeared to look RIGHT AT ME, I started to accelerate again. She pulled out and then stopped right in front of me. She then mouthed the words; "I'm sorry." I was getting ready to scream at her, but she looked so horrified, I knew nothing I could say would be beneficial. She rolled down her window and said, you guessed it, "I didn't see you."

I am convinced now more than ever that if they aren't really looking, and I mean looking - they simply won't see you. I don't care if you wear a light up Tron suit.

Be safe out there.

Spend a hundred bucks or so for a KRISS Headlight Modulator http://www.kriss.com

They really do help.

[paulcbrowne]

None of the added visibility things you may add provide a guarantee -- added lights, loud horn, hi-viz clothing, etc. However, each may provide a small advantage in some circumstances. Unfortunately, we seldom ever know how many times they may have given us an edge in riding encounters that could have otherwise gone badly. I'm of the school that I'll add anything that gives me a small edge over not using same. I still ride knowing that everyone else on the road is out there to kill me. Heck, I nearly got t-boned by a Harley once! High-viz isn't bunk. It's just something that gives the attentive rider an edge. Of course, I was wearing my high-viz, white helmet, driving lights and HID headlights when I was struck by a driver who ran a stop sign while on a cell phone. No substitute for being attentive to EVERY threat. As I said, no guarantees when you raise your kickstand.

[greenyaris]

+1 from me, Paul. As you say don't rely on hi-viz to protect you; you must always ride as if you are invisible.

[marksbike]

Got to add my two cents on this one. When I got my Burgie last year the Mrs. Insisted I wear a HI-Vis vest w/reflectors. I felt like a road worker but went along because I didn't want her to worry. A few times I have had my buddy's in cars follow me both day and night and have asked them if the vest made any difference. They ALWAYS said it made a BIG difference and at night I lit up like the fourth of July from a block away. For my birthday this November I got a Hi-Vis Fly jacket with body armor after watching this video from Brittany Morrow. http://www.rockthegear.org/ I get nothing but thumbs up when I'm at a stop light from other cagers. For me, I'll do anything to tip the odds in my favor. Mark C.