Primary Spline Failures

[SinCityMMJ]

I am concerned. I just bought a 2003 AN650 with 15000 miles. good price but did I buy problems? Is this a costly issue? Is it rare or affects all K3's? Should I worry?

[herbeckg]

The 2003 and 2004 AN 650 I would not touch with a 10 foot pole. I bought mine before any one knew about the problem. The cost of the repair $3000.

[MJR]

It can affect all 2003-04 models. The key in saving some money is the problem doesn't come without warning. It will start with a chirping noise which can be heard idling without a helmit on. If you hear it stop riding it and get it fixed. I'd probably suggest replacing the primary CVT pulley/shaft assembly anyway as I suspect the new replacement one (fits '03-09) has better heat treating on the shaft splines (just a guess). It can be expensive as herbeckg said. At minimum if you can do the work yourself it will be about $500-1,000 in parts.

[Dave_J]

SinCity, there are many more owners that have gotten to 50,000 +miles with NO problems than those that have had problems at 15,000 miles. Its the luck of the draw. Yes there have even been failures at 3,000 miles but very few.

On my 03 650, I got to 57,400 before my bearings in the reduction transmission went out. But that may have been an oil failure. I was running Moble 1 5W20 at the time.

But it seems that my CVT is ok and the Primary splines show little wear.

[millhand]

o6 with 23000 miles .PULLEY ASSY, PRIMARY bareing failed , dealership labor and parts 3200.00 . 800.00 parts 2400.00 labor . texas,ark,La,Miss, nobody has worked on these scooters. 10 hrs to brake scooter apart 3 weeks to find problem . suzuki rep called drivebelt ( million mile belt , evidently bareing inside caseing is only good for 23000 miles . suzuki customer service says sorry , no recalls your problem

[MJR]

millhand, what specifically else is damaged? If it's just a bearing then parts should be cheaper. Did it damage the primary pulley splines? Sounds like there's more damage than just a bearing, sorry to hear. They are quite expensive to fix when something major goes wrong since the whole bike needs to be disassembled basically. Please post up any other information you might have or get, thanks, sorry again for the failure though.

[millhand]

tech , showed t he bareing that rides next to plate on prmary pully assem. bareing colapsed , this allowed primary shaft to move from side to side . shaft is eaten away on both ends . cant buy bareing seperate from pully and shaft. all come as an assembly .800.00 . look up cvt #9 is the primary assembly . this assembly is enclosed and after unit put back together , there is NO getting to this part of theunit to service at a later date .bad design by suzuki to build a part of equipment that can not be serviced unless u brake motor in half . suzuki should do recall to at least ppresent a way to lube or grease

[herbeckg]

cvtopen__STF6106x.jpg (67.99 KiB) Viewed 2129 times

This is the bearing.

[LuisM]

Hi Guys,
I got the special tool to remove the Primary pulley shaft adaptor and still it will not move, and I can see that the tool will get damaged soon. If someone as taken this thing out can you let me know how you done it, do I need to heat it up to release it?

Thanks,
Best Regards
Luis

[LuisM]

Hi Guys,
After reading all the posts about the Primary Spline Failures, I am still a bit confused about something:

Can I use the newer models adaptor and bolt, or to do that do I have to change the primary pulley assembly also?

Thanks
Best Regards
Luis

[Colchicine]

It is my understanding, No. It would require changing the primary gear from the engine as well.

Sure would be nice to have someone summarize all of this for an article on the Knowledge Base.

[pirmil]

just a little update with a drawing showing the difference between the two bonding systems.
http://www.pirmil.info/scoot/ssiburg/65 ... oise.shtml

[Jim]

Again Pirmil,

Thank You

[riddo]

hi, I had an unfortunate experience, the primary bolt, k6- came unscrewed and drilled its way through the cover, i only noticed as I was doing an oil change, how did it keep running with this bolt not done up,

regards John melton mowbray (riddo)

[Buffalo]

It kept running because all that bolt does is ensure the primary adapter does not come off. The adapter is splined to the shaft. As long as the adapter does not move then the bike will keep operating. With the change to the design of the adapter in the 2004/2005 model year the adapter is much more robust and less likely to back out.

The bolt is suppose to have thread locker on it before it is screwed in and torqued down. Your's may have not had the correct amount applied to it. A couple of others have had this issue. Good news is that a new bolt and cover should solve you problems.

[riddo]

thanks Buffalo, I was worried that there may be damage inside but it ran ok today, I have had a new cover machined at the factory where i work, this should be fitted by the weekend, it does not seem to have any mechanical purpose only to keep the muck out, the bolt had suffered some burring on the thread so I chase this out and refitted with more threadlock, how can you check this, only by undoing the cover every so often ?? how tight should the bolt be,
regards John

[Buffalo]

That bolt is a single use bolt. You are suppose to replace it with a new one any time you remove it. I ordered a new one from Ron Ayers when I pulled the CVT out of my bike. The part number is 09103-12077 and the name is BOLT,12X130. Ron Ayers wanted $3.97 for it. It torques to 67.5 ft lbs.

You are correct in your assumption that the purpose of the cover is to keep the muck out. You have to have access to the bolt to remove it and the adapter so you can pull the CVT off. The hole provides the access, the cover keeps it clean.

It's probably a good idea to check every once in a while to make sure the bolt is still tight.

[riddo]

ok, i'll get a replacement on order, and swap it over next time i have the cover off, what is the purpose of the splined nut, just to stop the engine turning while you tighten up the bolt,
John

[Buffalo]

Yes that is it's purpose. You have to hold the nut while you torque the bolt. You can see the setup I used here
http://burgmanusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=54571&p=503565&hilit=+32+MM+deep+socket+#p503565

[MJR]

I hope this isn't an issue posting this here as well. It seemed to me since the point of failure is the same cause of spline failure it would be appropriate here in this sticky thread. Original thread is here http://www.burgmanusa.com/forums/viewto ... =4&t=56792

Ok so I finally got the CVT torn down and can give you the cause of the problem, the CVT input bearing! Yes this is the same bearing responsible for stripped splines on the '03-'04 models! I should know as I own one that failed with 26,000 miles on it.

Ok so who here thinks Suzuki has a major problem on their hands?

So here's what you'll see in the photos below and what was going on as well as my thoughts.

The failed CVT input bearing was allowing what should be the fixed end of the primary pulley to move in/out slightly. This is evidenced by the damage to the plastic adjuster gear and the aluminum case. In Manual 1st or Power the primary pulley is adjusted all the way open. So as the fixed end of the primary pulley moved and opened beyond the design limit the secondary pulley was not able to keep the drive belt tight as it was already fully closed to it's maximum. In Drive the primary pulley is not opened as far so the secondary pulley was able to maintain drive belt tension. The other symptoms I noticed are due to this same issue. As the CVT controller would adjust the primary pulley it saw the correct readings from the pulley position sensor but with the pulley moving in/out on the other end it would still allow a bit of slip on the drive belt.

As can be seen in the photos the input bearing was clearly seizing due to a lack of lubrication/condensation/corrosion and that caused the bearing to slip on the primary pulley shaft which wore the shaft down. You can see evidence of this in the discoloration of the input bearing inner race. The primary pulley assembly seems to have a bit of play in it but that could be normal though as I have nothing to compare it to. Ultimately it doesn't matter as the assembly has to be replaced and the same parts are damaged in my '03 from the same bearing failure so I can't build one good assembly from both of them.

Ok so the minimum list of parts needed for repair. Primary pulley assembly, input bearing, dust seal, primary pulley shim set, primary pulley o-ring, output bearing seal, and output o-ring. Approx cost of parts alone are $750-850. I have no idea what labor would run someone if they had to pay for it but I could certainly see why they might consider it a throw away bike with this kind of failure and the cost to someone unable to do the repairs themselves.

I think there are two issues with this failure. One being that it seems some of these bearings are sub standard when it comes to proper lubrication and sealing right from the factory. The second seems to be no sealing of the CVT input to engine case. They seal the output to the case with a o-ring because the output bearing is lubricated by oil but this also seals it to the engine case. Why then would they rely solely on the bearing seal to keep the grease in and moisture out? My thought is that they should use a higher quality bearing with better lubrication/sealing along with some sort of sealing to the engine case and maybe even some grease in between the two.

What I plan to do for repair besides replacing the necessary parts would be to use a sealed hybrid ceramic bearing on the CVT input, swap out the good plastic adjuster gears from my '03 along with that drive belt, apply some grease between the CVT case input and the engine case, and finally use a anaerobic sealer between the CVT case input and the engine case to hopefully prevent any further issues.

I found a couple of interesting things while going through this process.

It seems that the actual PPS voltages differ from the service manual. On the '09 (yes I took apart a perfectly fine bike just to have something to compare to) the voltages are fairly close to what the service manual says but on the '06 these were further off from the service manual. I also checked the '03 in the one ratio it was already in and found it was comparable to the '06 reading in the same ratio. I swapped out the PPS with two known good ones just to be sure and the readings were basically the same. Now I don't know if anyone else out there has gone through this test to see what their voltages were but it would be interesting to compare if they had. It would be nice if the service information gave a +/- range of what to expect from the spec. It's possible this variation is just due to normal age/wear on the sensor and/or the primary pulley assembly also. When I can afford to repair the bike I will have a before/after to see I guess.

Oh and I think a badly worn stopper bolt could also be a warning of the bearing failure.

In looking at the design of the primary pulley shaft it occurred to me why would they use an o-ring and grease on the shaft where it goes into the input bearing? Wouldn't one expect it to just press in? My thought is even though Suzuki may not have been aware of what a problem this bearing could be down the road that they planned for a safe failure. By doing it this way if the bearing seizes it wouldn't have seized the primary pulley from turning which in turn could lock up the rear wheel while riding leading to a loss of control of the bike. Mind you this is a guess but it seems logical to me. It also could be to not place too much stress on the aluminum CVT case.

What really sucks in all this is that I would guess by the time an owner would hear something is wrong it's probably already too late to save the rather expensive primary pulley assembly. On this '06 I could hear a light chirping noise (at idle with my helmet off) along with what I thought was excessive noise from the CVT and a bearing type noise while riding. On my '03 it was the same light chirping noise (at idle with my helmet off) which was followed later by the primary pulley splines stripping in the adapter gear in one final quick bang.

Well there it is for what it's worth, sigh.


Finally split the case open.

Here you can see the dust seal and input bearing seal removed. There is also plastic shaved off one of the adjuster gears and marks on the case where the primary pulley was rubbing on it. As you can see the input bearing failed.

Here you can see the marks on the primary pulley from rubbing on the case and that it's rubbing on the plastic adjuster gear. Note the powdered rust also.

Here you can see what's been shaved off the plastic adjuster gear by the primary pulley rubbing on it.

That powdered crap is metal/rust, it sticks to the pocket screwdriver magnet.

Inside of the case.

Damage to the anchor end of the primary pulley assembly by the stopper bolt.

Original stopper bolt with 54,000 miles on it. It was really close to total failure.

Here you can see the wear allowed the primary pulley assembly to rotate a bit and how close it was to total failure.

Closeup of the failed bearing and damage to the primary pulley.

Closeup showing the primary pulley damage from the failed input bearing.

Closeup of the drive belt which actually looks ok for the first used one (I have a new one also) I've seen.

[cliffyk]

I had sort of "sworn off" this forum for a number of reasons that I shall not go in to, however as you have so well documented what I have observed to be both inferior design and quality control issues with the 650's I find I am drawn to comment.

In my search for a two-wheeler more fitting my advanced years, and finding the extra 250 cc's appealing, I looked at and rode a number of 650 Burgmans of various vintages with 16k to 45k miles before settling in on my '03 400. With just a bit of research I could not shake my gut feeling that for what life had taught me was supposed to be a simple vehicle, I.e. a scooter/motorcycle, the AN650 drivetrain drivetrain was such a remarkably complex--almost Rube Goldberg (Heath Robinson for those on the other side of the pond)--sort of mechanism.

It is remarkable to me that Suzuki can produce a consumer grade version of it for the price they ask, an industrial grade equivalent would cost $50k or more...

[Buffalo]

Good detective work. Looks like while problems with the input shaft on the post 04 models are a lot more rare than on the 03-04 models, they are still possible. Now we know what happens if that bearing fails. Makes me wonder if I should have gone ahead and replaced the one in mine when I had it apart. I decided not to because the bearing was showing no signs wear and was still tight and smooth.

I would have to take exception to your surmise that Suzuki might have designed it that way to keep the rear wheel from locking is the CVT seized. If the CVT were to seize, it would stop the clutch input side from turning and the clutch would disengage. I think it highly unlikely that a CVT failure could make the rear tire lock for more than anything but a quick chirp before the clutch disengaged.

[MJR]

I would have to take exception to your surmise that Suzuki might have designed it that way to keep the rear wheel from locking is the CVT seized. If the CVT were to seize, it would stop the clutch input side from turning and the clutch would disengage. I think it highly unlikely that a CVT failure could make the rear tire lock for more than anything but a quick chirp before the clutch disengaged.

This was a guess based on my experience working on a '07 that the CVT was stuck in high and my experiments with the CVT that the clutch will not disengage unless the CVT shifts into low gear. I was able to pull in the rear brake lever slowly and bring the engine RPM down until the motor stalled. The clutch never tried to disengage. Not sure what would really happen if the CVT locked up.

Another thought is this design with the o-ring and grease may be leading to the shafts being ground down as the bearing binds the inner race slips on the shaft.

[MJR]

Ok so I decided to remove the CVT from my '03 this weekend and tear into it so the failure could be documented.

Here's where it started back in April-May of 2007 with about 22,000 mile on the odometer.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=22461

Then came this post.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=38256&start=142

I already knew based on Burgermann's starting of this thread what to look for when the splines failed in July 2010 with 26,228 miles on the odometer. At that time I pulled the cover for the CVT input adapter gear and could see that the bolt had spun on the gear. Putting a socket on it made the rear wheel turn but not the engine driven gear so I knew it was the splines most likely due to a bad bearing and slop between the way the adapter gear fit onto the primary pulley shaft.

So here's the photos. The damage is what I expected based on tearing into my '06 but the shaft is ground worse. Same failures of the bearing leading to destruction of the primary pulley shaft with the added damage caused by the adapter gear. By the time you hear it my guess is that it's already too late to save the primary pulley assembly.

Here's the bike torn down to get the CVT out.



Here's the inside of the input adapter gear showing some damage.



Here you can see all the ground up metal turned to rust and that there's no splines left on the primary pulley shaft.



The bad input bearing.



And finally the severe damage to the primary pulley shaft.



Additional photos can be found here. http://www.gotgroceries.net/modules.php ... temId=1147

[Buffalo]

This was a guess based on my experience working on a '07 that the CVT was stuck in high and my experiments with the CVT that the clutch will not disengage unless the CVT shifts into low gear. I was able to pull in the rear brake lever slowly and bring the engine RPM down until the motor stalled. The clutch never tried to disengage. Not sure what would really happen if the CVT locked up.

The clutch engages and disengages strictly based on the speed the input shaft is turning. With the clutch engaged the rear wheel turning as the bike moves would keep the input shaft turning. The bike would have to slow to below the 7 or 8 mph speed that the clutch engages and disengages before it would disengage. If you had it on the center stand with the wheel just spinning and the bike stuck in high gear the speed of the engine at idle would probably be sufficient to keep the input shaft spinning fast enough to engage the clutch. However if the CVT seized up so that it stopped the rear wheel from turning at all it would also drop the speed of the input shaft to zero so the clutch would disengage.