Primary Spline Failures

[Burgermann]

I draw all AN650 owners to my "worn out" primary spline at 37,000 km (approx 22,000 miles). There is dioalogue at the Burgman 650 section under CVT belt reliability on this site which you may like to read. The diesel noise may just be the death throes of an imminent failure. I have left an email message at the Australian Suzuki site but after 38 hours have not received any reply. I plan to make verbal contact tomorrow Friday 13 and ask for a commiement for assistance or denial. There are 4 primary pulley assemblies in Aus at the moment. I plan to get hold of one and fit it, to get my scoot on the road again (my labour). If I don't get what I consider reasonable assistance from Suzuki Australia, I plan to write a full report and send it to motorcycle magazines in Australia (and to this site), fix, then sell the Burgie and probably buy a Silverwing. I am an experienced tech writer, engineer and magazine editor, so I have the tools and contacts. I will send a step-by-step report with photos of my repairs for you all to read. Someone needs to stand up and demand compensation, for what I perceive to be a problem in engine design or assembly, otherwise, your scoots resale value may be severely reduced.

[Burgermann]

Pics of my AN650' s primary shaft adapter and what's left of the primary shaft spline (input to CVT) at approx 37,000 km are a bit scary. Note the dryness of the cavity for the adaptor and that of the adapter (unwashed) - looks like it may have been assembled dry to me (no Suzuki Super Grease A as per the Service Manual, Page 5-24).

[JohnK]

The "Dieseling noise" is a well known and documented fact since day one on the 650, especially on the k3 models.
There were a handful of reports early on of some failures and Suzuki redesigned the part and started replacing it in mid year o4.
All 650's o5 and up have the newer part and are considerably quieter but still make some dieseling noise at idle. There is a noticeable difference in sound between my K6 Exec and my F.I.L.'s standard K3. Since the redesign there have not been any reported problems that I am aware of.
Here is an excellent link showing the offending part and it's replacement. Click on the various diagrams to enlarge and see more detail.
http://translate.google.com/translate?c ... pair=fr|en

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an650-schema_001_small.jpg (18.42 KiB) Viewed 15701 times

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an650_schema_002_small.png (42.18 KiB) Viewed 15695 times

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[Jim]

Sounds like the same problem as in this thread.
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=34130&p=318184
around Newcastle in Oz.

You may need a stiff drink if you find all those powdered dusty spline particles (Burgman Rattle Powder) under the 2-screw secured cover plate - like I did.

From above link to Thread

The stripped spline is actually on the primary driven gear which engages with the Primary pulley shaft adaptor (this is the source of the famous Dieseling noise). This spline is non lubricated so will develop some redish oxide on the contact surfaces. The adaptor (a small "cog") is secured to the transmission with a bolt which may have come loose allowing excessive play in the mating splines. Any water entering via the dust cover can not however get into the crankcase but would get into the transmission but again I feel the cover would have to be immersed in water for this to happen. Even so I think I'll run a bit of silicone sealer around my cover...just in case.
Bazza
PS, interested to hear how muchee costee.

Here is one of the Most usefull links on the subject from one of our members Pirmil(Thanks again). It is translated from French
http://translate.google.com/translate?c ... pair=fr|en

[Dave_J]

Thanks all for starting a new post and adding photos to it. I would say this should be made into a sticky for a time.

Now, is it as easy as popping that cover off, pull the 03/04 gear out and replacing the whole unit and cover with a 05/up unit, bolt and cover?????? If so, lets do it. DaveJ

[trebor]

Now, is it as easy as popping that cover off, pull the 03/04 gear out and replacing the whole unit and cover with a 05/up unit, bolt and cover?????? If so, lets do it. DaveJ

I am just wondering what other or additional mods were also done at the same time to work with the shaft adaptor.

[birddog]

Just need to know is this a situation that me being slightly above average in the mechanical appitude dept. can get to that spline and regrease it with honda moly grease? thanks J

[Burgermann]

Don't throw away the old adapter. I intend to use mine as a shaft holder when I eventually fit the new primary assembly and need to torque up the adapter bolt. I hope that a modified 3/8" socket extension bar (passed thru the ald adapter) should be adequate to apply 46.5 ft-lbs to the adapter securung bolt (page 5-24), following application of Locktite Super 1360 to the thread and a generous glop of Moly grease to internal and external spline. Sounds like a good previous hint for the selastic-on-cover trick.

[Dutch]

I am going throught the same issue now. I was told today by the service manager that the Suzuki Super Grease A is a redish rust color. First time the service manager had seen this grease. I had this oily rust color dripping out of the bottom of the tranmission a few weeks before my spline froze on the primary pulley shaft. The drops were the size of a pencil head. The service manager made the comment today that it had to get hotter than hell to start dripping like it did.

I have written a letter to Mr. Mac Kato president of American Suzuki Motorcycles in Brea Calif. I mailed this on Monday 3/9/09. I also have contacted and filed a complaint with National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.

The reason I wrote the letter personally is on 20/20 last week they had an interview with a gentleman who said this is the best way to get results from major corporations when a customer is dissastified.

[Dave_J]

Don't throw away the old adapter. I intend to use mine as a shaft holder when I eventually fit the new primary assembly and need to torque up the adapter bolt. I hope that a modified 3/8" socket extension bar (passed thru the ald adapter) should be adequate to apply 46.5 ft-lbs to the adapter securung bolt (page 5-24), following application of Locktite Super 1360 to the thread and a generous glop of Moly grease to internal and external spline. Sounds like a good previous hint for the selastic-on-cover trick.

Burgermann, I have to ask, can this adapter be removed with the CVT still in place? Or does it need to come out for this repair? DaveJ

[Ken]

I would like to know exactly how to replace that adapter. I have heard that it can be replaced in about 30 minutes if special tools are used. Can this adapter be replaced without having the special tools? If it can be replaced easily without special tools, I would replace mine in an effort to quieten the diesel.

[RobinB]

I would be surprised with a positive result on this, the bike is 6 years old & way out of any warranty.

Robin...

[cmn1771]

anxiously awaiting "how to" info on all of this.


-matt

[trebor]

Hopefully when all is said and done this will be a sticky or a permanent post; I believe its that important.

[Dave_J]

Trebor, they did make this a sticky. Now if we can have someone post how its done. I know Burgermann is busy and with the time zone differances, I sure that he will let us know soon.

Any thing yet? No.

Yet? No.

{sounds of fingers tapping on the table} Anything?

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

[Burgermann]

No, no need to remove CVT to replace the Primary Shaft Adapter.
To Remove Primary Shaft Adapter: Note, this is how I did it but I am not recommending it, lest someone try to sue me!!!
WHAT I DID (actually done by me).
READ IN CONJUCTION WITH SERVICE MANUAL
1) Put scoot on center stand,
2) Remove enough tupperware below the seat on the LHS so you can get to the 2-bolt cover between the engine end and the clutch housing.
3) Undo the two bolts (10mm or 12 mm AF heads) and remove cover which is shown in my pic in this thread,
4) Using a 17mm socket and extension bar attached to a good-quality rattle gun, using short bursts, undo primary adpater securing bolt,
5) Using Suzuki special tool (threaded extraction tool) or a slide hammer, remove the primary adapter. Mine slid out easily,
STILL TO BE DONE (this is how I intend to reassemble).
6) Put on some safety goggles and breathing mask and blow foreign stuff out of adapter gallery (drive gear) with a compressor and air gun,
7) Inspect condition of primary shaft spline. If stuffed (like mine is), replace it (after removing CVT),
Using a piece of wire or steel rod with rag or similar attached, apply Loctite cleaning fluid to it and manipulate it into the primary shaft thread to clean thread of Loctite residue (from initial assembly), then blow clear with long air gun from compressor,
9) Apply grease (I intend using a high-temperature molybdenum grease) to external surface of primary shaft spline and to internal and external splined surface of adapter (but not too much so as to enter the primary shaft thread. Apply grease also to the internal surface of the mating spline drive gear (gallery),
10) Slide new adapter over primary shaft, and apply Loctite to adapter bolt, and screw it into place (light tighten with socket and bar),
11) Using the old adapter to hold the internal surface of the splined drive gear with a suitable wrench, torque up the adapter bolt to specified torque (as in Service Mnaual),
12) Fit cover, allow Loctite adequate time to cure, then static test scoot on center stand. Replace tupperware and road test.
SORRY NO PICS, BUT CAN DO A FREEHAND DWG DOWN THE TRACK - PLEASE ASK.
Hope this helps y'all. Burgermann

[Dave_J]

YESSSSS!!!!!! Thank you, very much. I have been thinking about this for a long time. I looked up the 03/04 Adapter 21755-10GA0 and it lists for $85.64 US$ and the 05/up 21282-10G00 lists for $18.64, go fugire. The bolt is the same price but is a different part number, 03/04 21756-10G00 and 05/up 09103-10119, both are $4.47. I could not find the two covers but they are different, per PRIMAL's excelent web site. If anyone has the part numbers and price, please post it.

I am very willing to host a "WORK PARTY" for all local Burgie owners with a Pot Luck lunch any time. I have lots of tools and am willing to buy/make tools as needed. These work partys can be set up to do anything, like headlight modulaters, fog lights ...... I have a 3 car garage that is about 2/3's full of 68 Dodge Dart racing stuff but still lots of work space. DaveJ

[Ken]

Thanks for the write-up Burgermann. I too have been wanting to change mine but was afraid to try without the special tool that is shown in the manual. Sounds like no special tool is needed. Now I just need to determine exactly which parts I need for my 03. Thanks again.

[cmn1771]

No, no need to remove CVT to replace the Primary Shaft Adapter.
To Remove Primary Shaft Adapter: Note, this is how I did it but I am not recommending it, lest someone try to sue me!!!
WHAT I DID (actually done by me).
READ IN CONJUCTION WITH SERVICE MANUAL
1) Put scoot on center stand,
2) Remove enough tupperware below the seat on the LHS so you can get to the 2-bolt cover between the engine end and the clutch housing.
3) Undo the two bolts (10mm or 12 mm AF heads) and remove cover which is shown in my pic in this thread,
4) Using a 17mm socket and extension bar attached to a good-quality rattle gun, using short bursts, undo primary adpater securing bolt,
5) Using Suzuki special tool (threaded extraction tool) or a slide hammer, remove the primary adapter. Mine slid out easily,
STILL TO BE DONE (this is how I intend to reassemble).
6) Put on some safety goggles and breathing mask and blow foreign stuff out of adapter gallery (drive gear) with a compressor and air gun,
7) Inspect condition of primary shaft spline. If stuffed (like mine is), replace it (after removing CVT),
Using a piece of wire or steel rod with rag or similar attached, apply Loctite cleaning fluid to it and manipulate it into the primary shaft thread to clean thread of Loctite residue (from initial assembly), then blow clear with long air gun from compressor,
9) Apply grease (I intend using a high-temperature molybdenum grease) to external surface of primary shaft spline and to internal and external splined surface of adapter (but not too much so as to enter the primary shaft thread. Apply grease also to the internal surface of the mating spline drive gear (gallery),
10) Slide new adapter over primary shaft, and apply Loctite to adapter bolt, and screw it into place (light tighten with socket and bar),
11) Using the old adapter to hold the internal surface of the splined drive gear with a suitable wrench, torque up the adapter bolt to specified torque (as in Service Mnaual),
12) Fit cover, allow Loctite adequate time to cure, then static test scoot on center stand. Replace tupperware and road test.
SORRY NO PICS, BUT CAN DO A FREEHAND DWG DOWN THE TRACK - PLEASE ASK.
Hope this helps y'all. Burgermann

out of curiosity, i opened mine up. i got to step 4 and decided not to proceed. the 17mm bolt you mentioned, is 14mm on mine and behind it is a larger nut that looks to be about 24mm. so i just put the lid back on it and left it alone. i didnt want to screw anything up. ha ha.

-matt

[LeDude]

out of curiosity, i opened mine up. i got to step 4 and decided not to proceed. the 17mm bolt you mentioned, is 14mm on mine and behind it is a larger nut that looks to be about 24mm. so i just put the lid back on it and left it alone. i didnt want to screw anything up. ha ha.
-matt

Matt,

out of curiosity, can you lube the splines at step 4 or do you need to actually remove the piece ...

[cmn1771]

no, u got to go further. i think u have to complete step 5.

i cranked the scoot up while the lid was off. the nut and stuff turns when idleing and when throttling. all this time , i had no idea something was turning behind that little lid.

-matt

[Burgermann]

Matt, My primary shaft bolt head is definitely 17mm across the flats (hence 17mm socket). I bought a set of impact sockets to remove said bolt. I can't figure what the 25mm nut behind it is (that you mention) but check the illustrations put in earlier by another Burg-person. My scoot is an 03 and drawings indicate that later models have a different adaptor with a much longer bolt than the earlier design. Check my pic taken up the gallery - I removed nothing else but bolt and adapter (and spline dust) prior to taking the photo. It's not a big job if you have rattle gun and slide hammer (unless your primary spline has gone, like my pic shows). Good luck

[cmn1771]

ill take the lid off again tomorrow and take a pic so u can see what im talking about.

i looked at the diagram on www.pirmil.info.

it doesnt look exactly like mine. it seems to show the 14mm hex bolt tightening down right against the primary pulley adapter.

mine has a 14mm hex bolt ,then behind it is a hex nut that looks to be about 24mm. iv got a impact (rattle) wrench that i can take it off with but im afraid i might screw something up.

also, check this out http://www.pirmil.info/scoot/ssiburg/65 ... oise.shtml

when they redesigned the adapter with the longer bolt, they just flipped the lid inside out. this allows moister to enter almost at will!

-matt

[JohnK]

Matt:
You have the newer primary shaft adapter and bolt. that is why yours are 14mm (bolt) and 24mm (adapter), parts 48 and 49 in the drawing.
If yours doesn't have a loud dieseling noise and no visible rust showing and are turning freely then you are probably are ok. It is mainly the k3 and early k4 versions which need to be watched closer. There is no way to eliminate the dieseling sound completely even on the K5+ models but if you have ever heard a K3 you would realize how much quieter the K5+ models are.

[chessie650]

Maybe that problem is from water intrusion from non- normal use. Seems to be a good deal of rust on both sides of splines. Just speculation.