RIP -- Dead 04 650 at 54k miles / Lost all traction

[Ken]

The secondary should be fine unless the pulley faces have worn groves or bad bearings.

Talking about the O ring, mine had residue of what looked like black RTV on 3 places each about 1/2" long. When I replaced that o ring, I used black RTV in six places and each about 1/2"+. I then installed the shim and placed the primary assembly in place letting the primary to keep weight on the shim while the RTV cured for 24 hours.

[LeDude]

The secondary should be fine unless the pulley faces have worn groves or bad bearings...

The secondary looks in good shape, but I will spend some more time with it and take more detailed close-up pics to share and add to the DIY. I don't think it needs replacing.

I know I have to replace the secondary pulley bearing in the CVT cover which should not be that hard to do, but I am going to wait and see how it goes as these pieces seem to have been subjected to extreme heat and seated beyond the normal norms.

In the mean time, I have started putting together my parts list to rebuild the CVT... Will post it here for review once it is complete.

I have started familiarizing myself with the the rebuild steps.

Wanted to double chek on the shim measurement procedure !

If I understand the service manual correctly, you need to readjust/replace the shim if you are replacing the primary pulley or either the CVT case or cover.

Here is the wording from the service manual:

Caution: If any of the Primary Pulley, CVT casing or CVT cover has been replaced, install the shim whose thickness has been adjusted in the shim adjustment procedure

The measurement process seems pretty complex as you have to install the primary pulley onto the cover, install the adapter, install the bolt and torque it to spec and then take some measuremnts... and take everything apart once more for the belt installation...

Question: Ken, did your replacement Primary Pulley come with the o-ring on the shaft or did you have to order it separately. I recall you saying that the bolt was included.

did you actually mount the primary onto the CVT case and installed the adapter to take the measurements for the shim?

[Ken]

Wanted to double chek on the shim measurement procedure !

If I understand the service manual correctly, you need to readjust/replace the shim if you are replacing the primary pulley or either the CVT case or cover.

This is correct.


I used calipers for this check. (the kind that reads in thousands of an inch) Use the part of the caliper that will measure depth. Measure using a straight edge across the outer case flange. Record depth. They want you to measure this 3 times at different places and get the average depth. Set the primary in the inner case half and insure it is fully in place and measure from the inner case flange to the straight edge that is across the bearing flange. Subtract the bearing flange measurement from the average depth of the measurement you did on the outer case. That difference will be value X. Mine was at .150" The chart in the manual will give you a range of what the difference should be for each shim. My original shim was perfect in the very middle of the middle sized shim. I hope I have not totally confused anyone. It was easier to make the check than it is to explain how. I am not a technical writer.

Here is the wording from the service manual:

Caution: If any of the Primary Pulley, CVT casing or CVT cover has been replaced, install the shim whose thickness has been adjusted in the shim adjustment procedure

primary pulley shim adjust 01.jpg

The measurement process seems pretty complex as you have to install the primary pulley onto the cover, install the adapter, install the bolt and torque it to spec and then take some measuremnts... and take everything apart once more for the belt installation...

No the primary is in the picture for clarity only and primary is not installed when doing the measurement of the outer case. I set the primary assembly in the inner case and did not do anything other than insure the primary was fully seated. The bearing on the inner primary is not a very tight fit on the inner primary shaft so seating is not difficult.


Question: Ken, did your replacement Primary Pulley come with the o-ring on the shaft or did you have to order it separately. I recall you saying that the bolt was included.

O ring does not come already installed on the input side of the primary and it has to be ordered separately. The new longer bolt does come with the new primary assembly.

did you actually mount the primary onto the CVT case and installed the adapter to take the measurements for the shim?

I made an attempt to answer this above but may be confusing. If so, let me know and I will send my phone #, I can better explain rather than write.

[LeDude]

I used calipers for this check. (the kind that reads in thousands of an inch) Use the part of the caliper that will measure depth. Measure using a straight edge across the outer case flange. Record depth. They want you to measure this 3 times at different places and get the average depth. Set the primary in the inner case half and insure it is fully in place and measure from the inner case flange to the straight edge that is across the bearing flange. Subtract the bearing flange measurement from the average depth of the measurement you did on the outer case. That difference will be value X. Mine was at .150" The chart in the manual will give you a range of what the difference should be for each shim. My original shim was perfect in the very middle of the middle sized shim. I hope I have not totally confused anyone. It was easier to make the check than it is to explain how. I am not a technical writer.

No the primary is in the picture for clarity only and primary is not installed when doing the measurement of the outer case. I set the primary assembly in the inner case and did not do anything other than insure the primary was fully seated. The bearing on the inner primary is not a very tight fit on the inner primary shaft so seating is not difficult.

O ring does not come already installed on the input side of the primary and it has to be ordered separately. The new longer bolt does come with the new primary assembly.

did you actually mount the primary onto the CVT case and installed the adapter to take the measurements for the shim?

thanks ken...

I wasn't sure if the o-ring was part of a new primary pulley assembly... will add that to my list...

I was mainly interested in how you measured the H value for the Shim calculations...
did you replace the primary bearing?

the service manual calls for the following prior to taking the H (primary pulley height) measurements :

- install the primary pulley assembly onto the CVT casing
- install the primary pulley shaft adapter
- install and torque the pulley shaft bolt to spec

and then take the H measurements ...

I am wondering if installing the pulley shaft adapter and the bolt and torquing it to spec makes any difference?

The 05+ models are a bit different because of the different configuration for the adapter/bolt.

May have to go through the whole exercise after replacing the primary pulley bearing... just curious to hear opinions.

[Ken]

LeDude, I would install the new primary input bearing and then put the new primary into that bearing. You will find that the primary goes into the bearing very easily and can be taken out very easily without pullers. I think you will also find that you will be comfortable in taking that measurement without installing and torquing the adapter. You can always do what the manual states but I don't think it's necessary IMHO.

[LeDude]

You can always do what the manual states but I don't think it's necessary IMHO.

thanks ken... appreciate your time and input....

here is what I have on my replacement parts list thus far: (Ron Ayers OEM Parts)

10 -- 21747-10G00 -- O RING,PRI PULL -- 7.58
9A -- 21746-10G00 -- SHIM SET,PRIMAR -- $27.03
9 -- 21071-10G10 -- PULLEY ASSY,PRI -- $612.42
12 -- 21751-10G00 -- BEARING,PRI PUL -- $27.94
11 -- 09280-21014 -- O RING,D:1.2,ID -- $1.74
17 -- 21756-10G00 -- BOLT,PRI FIXED -- $4.98
28 -- 21916-10G00 -- O RING,CVT CASE -- $9.40
31 -- 27601-10G00 -- V BELT,DRIVE -- $306.53
37 -- 21077-10G00 -- GEAR ASSY,ACTR -- $48.84
39 -- 21078-10G00 -- GEAR ASSY,ACTR -- $60.15

cvt assembly replacement parts 01.gif

[Ken]

LeDude, One other item. Yes, I did replace the primary input bearing and dust seal. That bearing has failed too many times in others CVT to take a chance of not replacing it while everything is apart.

As a side note, my friend has already put over 1500 miles on the rebuild and everything is still great.

[cliffyk]

^+1, I could not agree more. If you consider the hours you have into this now (BTW, 110% golden documentation that will have a long life in "Burgmandom"), t'was me I would replace all bearings, all seals, and any other component that was even a little bit suspect--I.e. anything less than perfect...

[LeDude]

I examined the secondary pulley bearing as it sits in the cover right now and it seems to be in tip top shape, not sure it needs replacing, just plenty of engine oil once the CVT is reassembled ...

thumbing through past CVT rebuilds, I couldn't find a single instance where somebody had replaced the 2ndary bearing.

Going to take a heat gun to the primary pulley dust seal, 11A on ron ayers fiche, and see if it can come out clean and undamaged... will replace it if it gets bent out of shape...

will take my first set of shim measurements (D1-D3 / H1-H3) once I clean and polish bot the CVT cover and case with the old primary bearing in there and repeat it once more when I get the new primary bearing installed to double check and see if the measurements have changed for (H1-H3).

[jcdorz]

You started this project a long time ago, makes me glad I sold mine, but at the same time I'm glad you're doing all of this for DIY out there. This would have been a great project for the winter months, this is riding season-are you able to ride anything else while you are doing all of this work? JC

[LeDude]

You started this project a long time ago, makes me glad I sold mine, but at the same time I'm glad you're doing all of this for DIY out there. This would have been a great project for the winter months, this is riding season-are you able to ride anything else while you are doing all of this work? JC

the repairs can be done in about two weeks which should cover the tear down, diagnosis, parts ordering and reassembly.

Realistically, two days to tear it down, and about the same to put it back together if you can find continuous blocks of time to work on it

Parts availability and shipping could take a week or so.

I am nearing the end, will be ordering my parts this week and hopefully start the rebuild process in a week or so which should go a lot faster unless I run into other issues.

I am going to check the valves and do a few other things while I have it all apart.

I remain optimistic

[Ken]

I am going to check the valves and do a few other things while I have it all apart.

+1 good time to check valves and replace plugs. Maybe clean throttle body?

[LeDude]

Went to my favorite local dealer in Van Nuys to check on parts prices and availability....

he has come pretty close to what Ron Ayers or others charge, so I will probably be ordering from him locally,
especially when you factor in the shipping & handling charges ...

Most everything is in stock locally or around the country with the exception of the primary pulley itself which is on back order.

We won't get a definite delivery date for the pulley until we place the order...

I also learned that if they order something and return it they get charged a 15% restocking fee by Suzuki... kind of sucks...

I am trying to make sure that I get one of the newly redesigned primary pulleys...

the profit margin on the OEM parts seems to be in the 30-32% range...

[Ken]

I doubt you would receive the older style primary. When mine was ordered, I ordered using the old number which was superseded by the new number. If I were ordering another one, I would order using the new number. New number is 21070-10810.

There must be a lot of failures for the part to be on back-order.

[LeDude]

going to place my order for the replacement parts on Monday, was hoping to do it Saturday but had to deal with a broken water pipe...

this is what I have right now:

10 -- 21747-10G00 O RING,PRI PULL --------$6.86
9 -- 21071-10G10 PULLEY ASSY,PRI ---------$641.61 ( new part# 21070-10810 for all model years with the new bolt )
12 -- 21751-10G00 BEARING,PRI PUL -----$25.31
11 -- 09280-21014 O RING,D:1.2,ID ------$1.57
11A -- 21757-10500 Seal, Primary Pulley --$10.90
17 -- 21756-10G00 BOLT,PRI FIXED -------$3.74
28 -- 21916-10G00 O RING,CVT CASE ----$8.51
31 -- 27601-10G00 V BELT,DRIVE ---------$304.14
37 -- 21077-10G00 GEAR ASSY,ACT ------$44.23
39 -- 21078-10G00 GEAR ASSY,ACTR ----$54.49
47 -- 08319-31103 Engine Mount Nut ---- $3.45

Total: $1,103.80

going to hold off on the shim kit until I have had a chance to install the new primary bearing and do
the shim measurements

9A -- 21746-10G00 SHIM SET,PRIMAR $24.49

[MJR]

I examined the secondary pulley bearing as it sits in the cover right now and it seems to be in tip top shape, not sure it needs replacing, just plenty of engine oil once the CVT is reassembled ...

I'd suggest using a finger smear of anti-seize where the primary and secondary assembly bearing ends fit into the case to prevent the corrosion and troble getting them out again should need be down the road. Just enough but not to where it could end up on the drive belt causing problems.

[Socal Local]

Hey Dude,

What about the oil seal on the secondary shaft? I think my manual said to replace it every time the CVT is taken apart.
R in OB

[LeDude]

Placed the order at my favorite local dealer about an hour ago, awaiting to hear back from him as to what the ETA is on the primary pulley as it was the only item on back order... I am $1,100.00 poorer, hoping to make up for that pretty soon with tons of Burgman grins

I'd suggest using a finger smear of anti-seize where the primary and secondary assembly bearing ends fit into the case to prevent the corrosion and troble getting them out again should need be down the road. Just enough but not to where it could end up on the drive belt causing problems.

Thanks will keep that in mind, added it to my installation check list... any brand you can recommend...

Hey Dude, What about the oil seal on the secondary shaft? I think my manual said to replace it every time the CVT is taken apart. R in OB

The primary shaft has an o-ring on it which needs replacing and doesn't come with a new primary pulley if you ever have to order one, #8 in the pic above

I don't think the secondary has an o-ring on the shaft, it has a spacer at its base... there is an outer cvt case o-ring that needs replacing, are you talking about that one... It's #28 on ron ayers micro fiche... or #3 in the pic above

I will double check my service manual tonight when I get home... thanks for the reminder...

[Ken]

LeDude, it is item # 25 he is talking about. Part #21852-10G10. It is not on your list but probably should be.

[LeDude]

LeDude, it is item # 25 he is talking about. Part #21852-10G10. It is not on your list but probably should be.

thanks guys... found it, it's on page 5-14 in my online service manual... will add that to the list ... thankfully those are not on back order...

I will thumb through my paper service manual tonight and double check on all those must replace items...

[LeDude]

Hey Dude, What about the oil seal on the secondary shaft? I think my manual said to replace it every time the CVT is taken apart.
R in OB

Thanks for catching that, appreciate it, will save me some time, will call the dealer tomorrow and add it.

The Oil Seal in the Case/Cover definitely has to be replaced each time the CVT is taken apart. (25 -- 21852-10G10 --Seal, Secondary)

Updated my parts list and the accompanying pic:

10 -- 21747-10G00 O RING,PRI PULL -----$6.86
9 -- 21071-10G10 PULLEY ASSY,PRI ---- $641.61
12 -- 21751-10G00 BEARING,PRI PUL ---- $25.31
11 -- 09280-21014 O RING,D:1.2,ID ----- $1.57
11A -- 21757 - 10500 Seal, Primary Pulley - $10.90
17 -- 21756-10G00 BOLT,PRI FIXED ------ $3.74
28 -- 21916-10G00 O RING,CVT CASE --- $8.51
31 -- 27601-10G00 V BELT,DRIVE -------- $304.14
37 -- 21077-10G00 GEAR ASSY,ACTR ---- $44.23
25 -- 21852-10G10 Seal, Secondary ------ $12.23
39 -- 21078-10G00 GEAR ASSY,ACTR ---- $54.49
47 -- 08319-31103 Engine Mount Nut ---- $2.45

-------------- ----------------------------Total: $1,116.03

ps: I couldn't download roy ayers microfiche so the numbers in the displayed pics are different. I use roy ayers micro fiche as the comparison base.

[LeDude]

placed the order for the secondary oil seal today, which I had missed, and got some good news from the dealer...

it seems that the primary pulley wasn't on back order after all, it's just coming from a Southern warehouse somewhere, should be here by Friday.

It should take me a few days to polish, clrean, rebuild and reassemble the CVT once I have the parts ...

Will document everything as it happens...

kind of looking forward to getting it all back together and perhaps back on the road... remaining optimistic as usual ...

[Chatman128]

... remaining optimistic as usual ...

LeDude, you are one crankcase half full kind of guy

[LeDude]

LeDude, you are one crankcase half full kind of guy ...

Dang I knew I had a leak somewhere, better fill up and replace those washers....

I am anxiously awaiting the arrival of the new parts, kind of like x-mas in August for a Burgman kid with a broken CVT...

Going to go buy some fine emery cloth today and start the cleaning process for the CVT / case - cover...

Will also extract the primary bearing over the week-end and take some pics and videos... hopefully it won't turn into another wrestling match.

[MJR]

Will also extract the primary bearing over the week-end and take some pics and videos... hopefully it won't turn into another wrestling match.

Shouldn't be a problem, using a 4x4 under and socket/hammer they came right out.