Proper Screwdriver for Brake Reservoir Covers

[wspollack]

I just thought I'd share this with anyone interested, given the increased use of reservoir-cover add-ons and since I couldn't find anything in BUSA about it.

The screws holding the brake-reservoir covers in place are Japanese Industrial Standard (JIS) slotted, similar to but not Phillips screws. I've verified that this is the case for the 650 and for my previous Honda, and I'd give good odds it's the case for the 400 and most other Japanese bikes.

JIS slotted screw heads have a slightly different angle and design than Phillips screws (although I believe the thread pitch is a standard metric value). You can read about this at Wikipedia or at this page of Buonaluce.com, for instance.

Thus, if you're about to mess with the reservoir covers -- say, to bleed your brakes, or replace a cover with
one of Motorcycle Larry's fine RAM-ball reservoir covers -- I recommend you buy a JIS screwdriver set. Once you do, you can verify that the JIS #2 screwdriver fits like a glove, as opposed to any size of your garden-variety Craftsman Phillips screwdrivers (or the Phillips screwdriver bit included in the toolkit). If you use a Phillips screwdriver to remove or tighten these you'll wind up buggering the heads.

You can verify this by buying a #2 JIS screwdriver, and then noting that it doesn't wiggle at all in the slot, unlike a Phillips screwdriver.

I bought a set for $20 at HeliProz (search Screwdriver), but you can also get them (possibly cheaper, according to a recent search) at Central Hobbies and elsewhere.

[Colchicine]

Thanks for bringing this up, Bill. I've read about this before, and I'm sure like a lot of people, disregarded it because it doesn't really seem to matter much. I happened to take off the screws on my brake reservoir this weekend with no apparent ill effect, but mine weren't very tight. But I have to say, maybe this is the reason so many people strip out the screws in the bar end weights!

I would like to find a place local that sells the JIS, I'll use them if I can get them. Here's a direct link to the ones Bill got. At $5 each, those screwdrivers ought to be gold plated!
http://www.heliproz.com/prodinfo.asp?number=888101

[speed]

Any high quality #1 phillips screwdriver will work. I use my Klein brand. Fits perfectly. No special screwdriver needed. FYI

[wspollack]

Speed,

Were your reservoir-cover screws the original (black) stock ones? My set of Craftsman Phillips -- #1 or #2 (or #3) -- certainly didn't fit without wiggling, while the #2 JIS had absolutely no wiggle room. Same with my Honda reservoir-cover screws. Odd...

[speed]

Speed,

Were your reservoir-cover screws the original (black) stock ones? My set of Craftsman Phillips -- #1 or #2 (or #3) -- certainly didn't fit without wiggling, while the #2 JIS had absolutely no wiggle room. Same with my Honda reservoir-cover screws. Odd...

YEP! They're the originals. Klein part # 603-3 number 1 phillips srewdriver. The #2 is too blunt. I don't like craftsman screwdrivers, they are not consistant. I like thier sockets and wrenches though.

[wspollack]

Speed,

I don't really know what to say... except about my experience with my last two (Honda and Suzuki) bikes' being Japanese, and that of other riders in other forums of Japanese bikes. It's not really a question of having "quality" screwdrivers (and I'll grant you that Craftman may not be such); rather, it's a question of the slots themselves. The specification for JIS vs. American Phillips are something like 3 or 4 degrees difference (if memory serves) in the slope of the slot, plus differences in the way the top and bottom are formed.

I see the following as possibilities:

1) I'm all wet on this topic.
2) The Klein screwdriver is really a JIS spec one, not a Phillips one.
3) Somebody -- e.g., a shop worker or a passing stranger with a sense of humor -- replaced the original screws.
4) You haven't experienced the nature of a JIS screwdriver fitting absolutely as snug-as-a-bug-in-a-rug in the top of one of those screws.
5) American Suzuki varies these screws.
6) Whoever assembled the bike (here?) used the wrong screws.
7) None of the above.

In case it's number 4, I'm willing to ship you my screwdriver (PM me), if you promise to send it back. I only bought it to loosen and then tighten the screws to put on my Motorcycle Larry RAM-ball replacement reservoir cover, and so won't need it again for a year or so, when I get around to bleeding the brakes.

[speed]

I have a suggestion. Go to Home Depot (I think they still have Klein) or go to an electrical distributor(I work at one) and take a look at a Klein 603-3. You will see that it is tapered all the way to the point unlike some screwdrivers (particularly a #2) that are more blunt and are slightly rounded. My screws are original. The srewdriver fits perfectly. Heck the screws aren't really very tight anyway. GO for a nice relaxing ride. Then take 2 aspirin and go to bed. PM me if it still is bothering you in the morning.

P.S. my intent was not to rain on your parade.

[Tokkyu40]

Possibility #8: The variability in the manufacturing process came together on his bike/screwdriver combination to produce a perfect fit.

Possibility #9: Claude is going to Home Depot to take a look at these screwdrivers for his tool kit. I'm all for anything that fits better.

Claude

[wspollack]

Speed (et al.),

First of all, I really appreciate your noting that your "intent was not to rain on your parade." That is, like you, I'm just trying to share information here; I'm not trying to say "my screwdriver is bigger than yours," for example.

So, in this spirit of mutual help and sharing, here's my latest update. Per your suggestions and to help me maintain the fact or fiction that I have an open mind, I went for a relaxing ride, took an aspirin (doctor's orders anyway), and bought two Klein screwdrivers at Home Depot:



The worst-close-but-no-cigar award goes to the Craftmans #2 Phillips. That is, that was the closest Phillips I originally had.

The Klein 603-3 (a #1 Phillips) is better, but still a bunch of wiggle room. The Klein 603-4 (a #2 Phillips) is better yet: hardly any wiggle room at all.

Oh, yeah, almost forgot: first place still goes to my JIS screwdriver... which has no wiggle room at all, at least that I could tell (unlike the others).



I am now in complete agreement with you on these two points: the Klein screwdrivers are much higher quality than the Sears stuff I had, and actually much better quality than the JIS set I got at HeliProz. That being said, the JIS fits perfectly in these reservoir-cover screws, and none of the Phillips models does.

And my offer to loan you my #2 JIS still stands.

[speed]

Bill. Sorry it took so long to get back to you. If the JIS is a better fit. Great. But, the screws on the resevoir hardly have any tork at all on them, probably because they are screwed into plastic. My reasoning is that why buy a special screwdriver just to open the brake resevoir lid when you can use one that you probably already have in your toolbox. Now if it were a screw that needed some extra elbow grease to loosen, the JIS screwdriver is probably the best way to go.
I have to hand it to you, with all of those pictures etc.... you are the king of backing up your claims!

Oh, the Doc makes me take an aspirin everyday too!

[JT]

This thread got me curious so I took all my #1 and #2 Phillips screwdrivers and tried them in the brake reservoir cover screws.

The best fit by far was a stubby black handled Stanley screwdriver that came with some ready to assemble something or other. Fit so well it felt like it was superglued in. None of the others (Stanley, Craftsman, a Nebo 13-in-1, etc, etc) fit worth a darn.

[wspollack]

If you folks have a few minutes to spare, I hope you'll bear with me. I'll give some background that I hope may clarify things a bit.

This all started, for me, with my Valkyrie. About six or seven years ago, after frequenting a Valkyrie forum for a while, I found a way to "give back" to that community: I wrote an article on using SpeedBleeders to change the brake and clutch fluids. I had by then done this procedure on two bikes that I owned, and there were questions on the procedure periodically appearing on that board. Here's the article I wrote.

In passing in that article, I noted that I'd manage to bugger the cover screws (and replaced them with off-the-shelf hardware-store screws). One reader pointed out to me that the reason I did that was because they were not really Phillips screws, but rather were "crosspoint" screws; I then added that information to the article. I'd never heard of these, so I did some research and found that, more technically, they were JIS screws. You can Google, oh, JIS PHILLIPS MOTORCYCLE STRIPPED or JIS PHILLIPS CAMERA STRIPPED or something similar and do your own research (or just search some popular bike forums).

After seven years with the Valk, I sold it and bought the Burger Deluxe last year. A few months ago I bought one of Motorcycle Larry's (ML) reservoir-cover replacements, with two built-in RAM balls. I also noted that here on BUSA some folks had mentioned some problems with loosened reservoir covers, which is especially important if you have goodies attached to them via RAM balls and extensions. So, around the same time I ordered that replacement cover, I ordered a set of JIS screwdrivers.

Last week, when I finally got around to riding again, I removed the old cover with my new JIS screwdriver, put on the ML cover, and snugged it down "firmly" (that's the technical torque term) with that screwdriver. And then, I started this thread... remembering that I had butchered similar screws seven or eight years ago, and hoping to eliminate any similar frustration on the part of others.

That's the background. Just to make sure we're on the same page (more of which in a minute), these are the screws and the cover that I'm talking about:



Here's the other side, now with a replaced cover and the RAM goodies (and a GPS) attached:



And I actually do wonder whether we're on the same page here. Speed noted that his #1 Klein fit better than his #2 Klein. With my Kleins, the #1 was definitely looser (had more free play) than the #2; the #1, however, did appear to go in deeper than the #2, but it had an awful lot of play. And JT didn't specify what, if any, markings were on the Stanley; maybe the kit it came with has Japanese specifications, too. This is not as strange as it sounds, because in researching this I also discovered that most cameras -- which (d'oh!) are made in Japan and elsewhere in Asia -- have tiny JIS screws, which have, I gathered, befuddled a fair number of camera enthusiasts.

The other puzzlement for me is that Speed notes that the screws are "screwed into plastic." I am really certain that the reservoirs are made of metal (some form of aluminum, I'd guess, as they're not magnetic). Take off the cover and look at the (unpainted) inside, rap it with a hammer, etc.

So, are we talking about the same thing?

Speed: thanks much, for taking this in good spirits!

So, half a dozen years ago, I learned that a Phillips may instead be a crosspoint, or a JIS, or in any event something other than a plain ol' Phillips. This year, I learned that there's a wide variety in at least the quality of Phillips screwdrivers. I'm glad that I have now two good ones -- the Kleins, very notably superior quality -- as I use Phillips screwdrivers a lot, and these will now be my regular ones.

I may also have learned that there just possibly may be some variation in the screws used. I'll be putting on about 2,000 miles in the next week or two, and meeting some fellow Burger owners along the way. I'll add the JIS #2 and the Klein #1 and #2 to my toolkit (which I carry thus far just for good karma, as I don't actually use it on the road), and see how they fit other 650s. By the way, I just tried out those three on one of the six smaller screws (i.e., not the two big ones) that hold the dash in place, and I got the same result as with the reservoir cover screws. Go figure.

So, bottom line: are you sorry you read this much?

[TechArtGuy]

I went an entirely different route as I too got to stripping them out after changing the brake pads and doing a bleed. Had to deviate from the Phillips design altogether. Bought some small stainless steel 4mm hex head and a small stainless washer which had length of thread that equaled from the top of the original screws head to it's bottom.

[Colchicine]

FWIW, I met up with Bill yesterday and had a great get-together. He showed me the JIS and Klein screwdrivers. I promptly walked them over to my bike and tried them out. The Klein #2 fit good, just as good as any other screwdriver I've ever used. The Klein #1 was far too loose to trust on anything that requires some torque.

The JIS screwdriver however, fit like they were separated Siamese twins. The JIS screwdriver would stand up in the brake reservoir screw with no additional support even with the bike on the side stand. It's quite a remarkable difference when you have them side by side to compare. If I ever find a reasonably priced set of JIS I will definitely pick them up.

I think that that using JIS screwdrivers will prevent the stripping of the screws for the bar end weights that have been reported on this forum multiple times. Also, I find that the screws holding the front leg shield to the bike that are under the windshield are always really tight, I'm sure JIS would help in removing them.

[stanwyck]

And here I'd always thought the screwdrivers I'd purchased walking through the alleyways of Akihabara were just really nice phillips screwdrivers with big knobby ball handles. Anyway, my favorite screwdriver, purchased in Japan when I worked there, did a great job of removing my brake fluid covers and installing my new MCL dual-RAM-ball replacement covers

A few sources for JIS Screwdrivers:
http://www.ikaswebshop.com/jisphilips.html (these are the kind I bought in Japan - HOZAN D-332-150 Ball Grip JIS +2 Screwdriver, 6" Shaft)
http://www.centralhobbies.com/Tools/jis.html (less comfortable grip - more typical American style handle)
http://www.heliproz.com/prodinfo.asp?number=888101 (looks like the same ones as the central hobbies offering)

Don

[Burgy Bob]

I should of read this post before attempting to remove my brake reservoir covers!
I would of never thought a Stanley Phillips couldn't remove a screw...but the screw
heads started to strip out like they were butter! Uhrrrrrg!
Now I have to order a set of Japanese screw drivers from Central Hobbies in order to attempt
to remove the screws and mount my Ram Ball mounts again. I wonder if there are anymore Japanese tools
I need to order for my Japanese bike in order to keep their ecomomy going!

Now if the srcew heads are too stripped...what now? Back to the dealer to drill them out? Do I need to type in
+replacement +screws in the search engine? Are there any other tools (secrets) I need to know?
Maybe we need a catagory in the forum called, "Common Mistakes" ??? (or would it take up too much memory?)

I'm feeling kinda screwed right now.

[Colchicine]

I hope you haven't ordered the screwdrivers just yet. Instead, go down to Sears and buy screw extractors, then go to Lowe's and buy replacement screws which would presumably be the non-JIS shape. Replace them all now so you can use a regular screwdriver to remove them in the future.

[Burgy Bob]

Thanks so much for the good advice! But I already pulled the trigger on the screwdrivers.
Buy the time I drive to Lowe's & Sears for the other items, with the cost of the time/gas/product
I figure I'm just as well off with the $20 + shipping screw drivers. I'm working all weekend
so no rush. I'll put my toys on later next week. I just hope I don't need the screw extractor after all!

[wspollack]

I hope you haven't ordered the screwdrivers just yet. Instead, go down to Sears and buy screw extractors, then go to Lowe's and buy replacement screws which would presumably be the non-JIS shape. Replace them all now so you can use a regular screwdriver to remove them in the future.

+1, i.e., what Kory said.

I started this thread because on my prior bike I did exactly what you did: buggered a reservoir screw head (or two, I forget). And so I hoped, and hope, to have others avoid this problem. Yep, I feel your pain, and sorry you didn't see this thread sooner.

But:

1) After I buggered the screws, I also did exactly what Kory suggests, i.e., I went to Sears and got a set of screw extractors, drilled a tiny pilot hole (very carefully, to go in at a right angle and not too deep), got the screws out with the extractor, went to Home Depot and got some 4mm thread regular ol' Phillips screws, and all was well with the world, and;

2) I have absolutely no idea whether a JIS screwdriver will be able to unscrew a buggered JIS screw head... just so you're forewarned about this possibility.

On the other hand, the JIS seems to work well with a bunch of other screws on the Burger, so all may not be lost. In any event, good luck!

[Colchicine]

That's a good point Bill. If the screw head has already been stripped in any way, even having the proper screwdriver won't help. If they are reamed out, the extractor may be the only option.

[sonny1639]

Good thread.

Think I'll go find the special screw drivers we bought for my wifes Brother and Studio knitting machines years ago with the wooden handles.

We found regular phillip srew drivers would strip those screws also.

[Burgy Bob]

UPDATE:

Well guys....the Jap Ind Std screwdrivers arrived today and they didn't remove
the buggered up screw heads. So it's off to Hope Depot and Lowe's
for the fix. I just hope I get the right angle on drilling out the screw or I may
have to get a new brake reservoir! Keep your fingers crossed!

P.S. The JIS screwdriver walked the screws out of the other brake reservoir without a problem!

Motorcycle Larry should recommend/sell a set of JIS screwdrivers with every ball mount he sells!

Thanks for all the help!

[Burgy Bob]

The final solution.....

I bought a $2 screw extractor from Sears and proceeded to drill down into the stripped screw head.
I must be blonde as I soon then realized I didn't have a locking grip pliers or a "tap handle" to slowly
turn the screw extractor like drill bit. At this point I had two stripped heads with 1/16" round holes
in them. Instead of running back to Sears for another tool or letting my frustrations turn to the
electric drill so I could butcher the bike some more....the light bulb went off!

I took the Japanese bike to the Asian car mechanic 1 block away this Saturday morning. He tapped the two screws
several times with the skill of an orthopedic surgeon using a chisel to form a new groove
and then took a phillips type screw driver I've never seen before with a big handle and bore down
a little and they came out! He then replaced the 2 crews and did it all in 15 mins! This set me back a whole $10!
I watched this procedure as I answered questions about the bike from another mechanic and customer.

Now life goes on, but now with a new brake cover with 2 ball mounts for a GPS & drink holder.

[chuckp73]

Here's another option:

http://www.rjrcooltools.com/shop_item_d ... bcat_ID=89

They are 1/4" hex drive, to fit all those different changeable bit drivers. Could be very handy, and a lot smaller to pack in the tool kit. The prices aren't too bad, either.

Just FYI, but there are several different types of 'cross-head' recess designs. Be glad that you only have to deal with JIS. I think I have drivers for four or five different types.

One of the big advantages of JIS over Phillips is that, with the right driver, it won't cam out of the screw. The JIS standard has parallel walls in the slots. Phillips has a tapered configuration and that's one of the primary reasons for so many burred/stripped phillips screws. Worn screwdrivers and sloppy workmanship are the other two. With JIS (or, for example, Posidrive) you don't have that problem.

Chuck

[chuckp73]

Another source for JIS screwdrivers, albeit a tad expensive, is here.

These tools are built for and used by professional electronics techs, and the quality makes them worth the price. I've used Jensen tools extensively in the past and have always had good service from them. Caveat: I haven't dealt with them in the last few years, since they came under the Stanley banner. I've changed careers.

There is another set here, but it is for the smaller stuff, #1 through #000. It'd be good for cameras.

Chuck