Now I am Convinced that Hi-Viz is Bunk

[rustynail]

Meh. I'm not concerned with how I look - I ride a scooter!

[Muse]

The police rider had the highest possible level of training (way above civilian training). Why is it being used to disprove Hi-Viz but support training? If it proves Hi-vis as worthless it proves training as worthless too.

Hi-viz ain't worthless. That cop was also in a situation I wouldn't purposely put myself in - one of trying to stop freeway traffic while sitting perpendicular to traffic. So, I don't see it as an indictment on training. That is a situation where his visibility should have provided him with protection AND it appeared that he was relying on it to.

We all agree, ride as though your invisible, get trained - no argument, but its only part of the solution.
After that what can you do? what is the next step up?
Hi-vis is an extra weapon
Given the choice of 2 advantages, do you pick one or take them both?

Depends on how much advantage. Like I previously stated - I could ride around with a parachute. that would give me an advantage if faced with going wide in a turn and going off a cliff... I'm coming around to the hi-viz idea though. I mean, I wear a jacket always, anyway. Why not get a loud color just in case it does something? The 'chute would be cumbersome. The jacket? I'm already wearing it...

a. It could be me that makes the mistake

Unlikely - but not impossible. I am not 100% focused all the time.

b. laying in the road unconcious or immobilised

Unlikely - especially at night. I don't ride at night (except my 1 mile morning commute in winter on lighted city streets.

c. mechanical failure leaves you in a vulnerable position

EXTREMELY unlikely. There is no reason to stay by my bike. I get OFF the road.

d. Doing everything right but faced with a determined numpty

Also extremely unlikely. That's a lightning strike scenario.

I guess the lynchpin of my argument really is how much do you think it helps. I think very little if at all. It's the "very little" that makes me think that a jacket with hi-viz (if at the right price point) might be considered next time I need a jacket. But, I'm not going out of my way for one. The most important thing to me is that it has reflective piping for when I am caught out at night - but NOT for the frontal crash - for better visibility when traversing blind spots or when I am the only one stopped and I am approached from behind...

I've ridden in both worlds - with hi-viz on and without it. I see little difference in how people take note of me on the road with it on and without it.

Its a bit hard to notice a cop sitting on the road diverting traffic if your too busy having an in depth conversation on your mobile phone. its been scientifically proven that when when someones brain is full of amusement it fails to recognise whats occurring in front of their eyes.
Muse is latin for "To think
Amuse is latin for "not to think
Amusement is Latin for "Process to keep one from thinking.
This is the root of the problem we are discussing.

I remember as a child listening to my father telling his friend how motorist gave him a wide birth when he carried his rifle slug over his back when going hunting on his bike. how times have changed.

[Bluebottle]

Mobile phones are definatlely a huge problem.

However, it is dangerous to assume that inattentive drivers are the whole problem.

I got hit by just the opposite, a very attentive driver who meant to hit me. He was escaping from a burglary at the time
A stolen car saw me and aimed to hit me and I managed to swerve out of its way. I made a mistake by assuming he was on his own, he wasn't, there were two other cars and one of them rammed me as I straightened up, he then came back to finish the job.

My little story involved every advantage I give myself:
Training and expecting an inattentive driver put me in a defensive position and able to avoid the first attack and minimise the second/third.

ATGATT (2 layers of kevlar and full armour) reduced my injuries.

Hi Viz + white helmet meant that I didn't get hit by innocent motorists who were not expecting me to be defenceless in the road

Assuming I was invisible wasn't enough, training wasn't enough, riding skill wasn't enough, visibility wasn't enough; but all of them together made it survivable.

[Tokkyu40]

I favor shifting across the lane and back. People are more likely to see motion, so accentuating the visible motion across the background makes you more visible.
Even if they see you it's hard to judge the speed of an approaching motorcycle. Check out this video and see what an approaching bike looks like.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqQBubilSXU

Claude

[rustynail]

Yeah, I think that is a great strategy. That vids been on here a few times, but it's always good to be reminded.

Also, before I'd go out of my way for a fluorescent jacket (there's not too many to choose from & I'm hard to fit), I'd just add more legal lighting to the front of the bike (where research shows 90-95% of the threat is to motorcyclists). Seems like a better strategy to me.

For night-time protection - all of the jackets I have ever purchased had reflective piping + I have scotchlite retro - reflective patches in key areas on the bike. Finally, I don't ride much at night.

In bad weather (fog/misting), on my back I wear a pulsing LED strobe that alternates between red and yellow.

As far as helmets - it's at least 50% visor in the front, so the whole flourescent or white helmet idea doesn't sell on me...

I haven't heard a compelling fact-based argument for it yet.

Although, the AFX 140 really catches my eye. I may buy one in white because I have never had a white helmet & most the scuffs on my silver, red and black helmets were white.

[rustynail]

I got hit by just the opposite, a very attentive driver who meant to hit me.

There ain't much you can do for that is there?

Glad you lived to tell the tale

[Bluebottle]

Thanks

One car would have been easy enough to dodge, but 3 got a bit tricky

Rustynail's comments on this thread have had me thinking about the difference between riding here in the UK and in the US. We tend to have narrow windy roads with buildings very close to the road and junctions at all angles and intervals. The US tends to have wider, straight roads with wider sidewalks (we call it a pavement) and that sort of thing changes the way you need to ride.

I think I will start another thread as it is way off topic.

[Muse]

A number of years ago I experimented with an idea that i now use every day of my life because it works so effectively.
I turn every negative thought I have instantly into a positive.
I have found that situations that affect me are never negative only positive so I still take precautions and always forgive myself for any negative thought.

It works so well that even after a violent collision I walked away without a scratch and all the witnesses in awe of what they had just seen, me flying through the air then rolling down the road, scooter mangled and I just stood up and picked up the scoot as if nothing had happened.
Remember what we think is what we create for ourselves. This is the key for our lives.

[Profe]

I posted this in another topic the other day. I think it explains why even hi-viz
materials can make nodifference at times.

This is frightening! It works exactly like it says, and is one major
reason people in cars can look right at you (when you're on a
motorcycle or bicycle)---AND NOT SEE YOU.

From a former Naval Aviator.
This is a great illustration of what we were taught about scanning outside
the cockpit when I went through training back in the '50s. We were told
to scan the horizon for a short distance, stop momentarily, and repeat
the process. I can remember being told why this was the most effective
technique to locate other aircraft. It was emphasized REPEATEDLY, to
NOT fix your gaze for more than a couple of seconds on any single object.
The instructors, some of whom were WWII veterans with years of experience,
instructed us to continually "keep our eyes moving and our head on a swivel"
because this was the best way to survive, not only in combat, but from
peacetime hazards (like a midair collision) as well.
We basically had to take the advice on faith (until we could experience for ourselves)
because the technology to demonstrate it didn't exist at that time.

Click on the link for a demonstration.

http://www.msf-usa.org/motion.html

[Bluebottle]

That is a good illustration.
Now turn those yellow dots to black and they don't just disapear/re-appear, they never appear to begin with!

My "belt and braces" approach to safety is partly shaped by aviation procedures (currently involved in training helicopter pilots).

[rustynail]

I just put a tail bag on my pillion and posted some pics to another thread and in doing so realized I never posted a pic of my bike with its stealth reflective tape.

Ambient light:



Flash:



I put some of it on my helmet, too. My jacket already has Phoslite piping.

With bike running and headlights/tail lights illuminated... If you miss me at night, you weren't looking.

[mikeyMarine]

I wear black as to not show stains. Visibility for the most part has not been an issue. Most of the time, when I have been hit, the person was behind me at a stop, was distracted and then ran into me.

so dthat would be with brown pants and yellow chaps ? incase of a wreck or near miss ?

[mike D]

This week I had 4 incidents that deals with this subject.
1. A group of coworkers are testifying in a case were they had a traffic light shout down to Ca. OSHA standard. The complainant ran the 4 way stop and claims they had a green light.

2. I live in a yupi neighborhood. It is dark when I leave to work. The woman walkers like to walk down the middle of the street wearing black. I ride with my high beams on so I can see them, one stopped me and complained about the bright lights. I promised her I would run low beams when she start wearing light colored clothes. The one man that walks in the morning wears a yellow traffic vest and carries a flash light. he waves when I ride by.

3. The road I ride to work cuts a golf corse in half. This time of year it is getting light enough for the golfers to walk to the back 9. There is no light at the crossing. I cant believe the golfers that cross without look at oncoming traffic while wearing dark colors. I have witnessed several close calls.

4. A group of gas construction guys had a hole opened in the street. it was coned off according to Cal OSHA standards. A woman on her cellphone ran through 2 lines of cones over hundred of feet and into the hole. luckily no one was in the hole at the time.

Years ago when we first told the guys they had to wear safety vests the guys gave a lot of push back. In the last several safety meetings the field workers have been requesting we move to uniforms, jackets, & tee shirts that already have the necessary reflective material already on them.

[marksbike]

Hey Mike D. I couldn't agree with you more. Since I posted on this thread several times I've been more aware then ever over other bikers insistence in the "cool" all black look. They disappear at anything over 1\2 block away. Yet I can easily spot a Hi-Viz vest or coat several blocks away. For me it's a no brainer. Then again, it's a no brainer for them too...... Mark C.

[JustPassinThru]

Years ago when we first told the guys they had to wear safety vests the guys gave a lot of push back. In the last several safety meetings the field workers have been requesting we move to uniforms, jackets, & tee shirts that already have the necessary reflective material already on them.

The clothes are GOOD; but those vests are a P-I-T-A.

It's off-topic...but for about three years in my industry (railroading) we've been required to wear safety vests. And I HATE the damn things; they're always snagging or hooking on whatever's handy. The ones with the safety quick-tears come off, leaving you to piece them together when you're busy with something else. The ones that don't, will just tear. The ones that're ventilated, bunch and twist; the broadcloth ones make you sweat. And they're ALL dirty after a couple hours...not that I'm squeamish, but at the start of the day, with fresh clothes, the last thing I want to do is put on a greasy rag.

Okay. I changed companies and moved to a different area...and there's a different hardware-superstore chain here. Has the Carhartt hoodies and sweatshirts, and shirts...in the OSHA safety colors with reflective tape. I bought a week's worth and a sweatshirt, too...anything I wear will get trashed, anyway, on the job; might as well be in the colors the boss loves.

This current company allows this and encourages it as an option. Bigger railroad companies still require the stupid, binding vest...

But I have the colors and wear them whenever I'm out on foot after dark.

[rustynail]

Sorry, this one won't embed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gdyzw7qD ... ata_player

I have no explanation why that driver did not see my twin Motovision headlamps -both on high beam, which is how I roll during the day.

A GoPro distorts images. I was closer than it seems and I was almost panic braking in that scenario.

Had I arrived 2 seconds later, that may have been a crash.

[oldsomeman]

I personally believe that all road users or bike,scooters and cyclist should have hi vis jackets.I feel more confident of being seen and when i have bikers roaring past me between 2 lanes of cars at least i can see them coming if they have one on.......unfortunately many bikers in the UK DRESS IN black and once a certain distance away cant be seen......or maybe they dont want to be seem,,,,,,I one case travelling in 2 lanes on motorway solid with vehicles at 70..was whizzed past by a guy who was taking no prisoners.he must have been doing 80 plus,2 up and with black clothing on ,and on a dark night !He sure scared me, as well as lots of other drivers who suddenly reacted as the guy flashed by them.
At least the viz jacket helps to reassure me.......and yes i do also drive defensively!