Riding the twisty's on a Burgman

[Marv]

I have a Burgman 650 for almost a year now. I love riding the bike and ride every chance I get. The only thing that is uncomfortable for me is riding with a group around twisty roads. I laid off riding for many years and even then I was a street rider and never had to ride on twisty roads. I joined a Harley group to ride with because there was no other group to ride with at the time. It was embarrassing when I was asked to ride in the rear of the group. What I would do is carefully negotiate the turn and then speed up to the group. I passed the basic riding course which is required for a motorcycle endorsement in Florida but that was slow riding around a fixed course which was no problem for me.The advanced motorcycle course is just a review of what you learned in the basic course except you take it on you own motorcycle. How do I learn to take turns faster without ending up in a ditch! Are there any books or DVD's or live instructors that teach this?

[Buffalo]

David Hough's book "Proficient Motorcycling" and Lee Park's book "Total Control" are a couple that come to mind.

[RustyB]

A few other publications you should read -

Harley Hogwash by Tristan Goh
Eat My Dust by Sassy Burgman
Flying Past a Harley by Gimmea Brake
and the classic...
The Wind Beneath Me Stings by Gasseous D'Wonder-Hogge

Ride as you will...

[Hammer]

It was suggested to me to read D hough's book in these forums, so I did. The section about counter steering helped me out a lot. Before that I was all body english and would get very nervous when a curve was coming up. Hough's book tells you why counter steering (pushing the left grip to go left, pushing the right grip to go right) actually works. Another help may be to look where you want to go, not what you are pointing at. Etc, etc. read the book Proficient Motorcycling by D Hough. You can pick one up on ebay for a few dollars. I guarantee that when you can negotiate a curve at speed, they will become the best part of your ride instead of the most feared. Be safe.

[gruntled]

Heck I hold up the cars on the twisties & have to keep pulling off to let the backed up traffic go by.
Maybe that's part of how I have lasted through 57 years of riding. I'm not in all that much of a hurry. Whatever
is up there will still be there when I get there.

[rustynail]

Riding the twisties fast can be a safe, fun way to enjoy motorcycling within the limits of the posted regulatory speed. If I couldn't lean and strafe the apex on a motorcycle, I would sell them both and get a convertible.

All references listed here are great, Marv. What I would humbly add is that practice makes perfect. I've been riding on motorized two wheels since around 7 years old (now 39), and I still feel I could greatly improve. I still mis-read corners...

Keep riding!

[vzshadow]

Proficient Motorcycling and More Proficient Motorcycling (both by Hough) are excellent.

You need to learn to slow down going into the curves and pick your line. Counter steer that line and lean with the bike. Then as you hit the apex roll on the throttle and accelerate out of the turn. Rolling on the throttle actually helps the bike return to upright. It is tricky. It's a combination leaning and "falling" with gravity, but offsetting it with centrifugal force to stay upright. That's why you don't want to hit your front breaks in a turn, without the acceleration gravity wins and you fall. You have to trust in physics. Based on the way the bikes are designed, Harley cruisers should be no match for you Burgman in the turns. You have the ability to lean more than they do.

My wife was having trouble in twistys on her 400. She rode pillion with me and learned how much you can lean and when to twist on that throttle. Now she says the best part of riding motorcycles is going fast and leaning in the curves. She's actually quite skillful.

[Marv]

Thanks for all the suggestions.
I did order one of the books that was listed on Amazon that was suggested.

[Daboo]

A local e-magazine, Sound Rider, gets some great "How To" articles. Since David Hough is a local, we are blessed with some articles that he's written.

Here's just a couple...
The Good Rider

Introduction - http://www.soundrider.com/current/oct11 ... -intro.htm
Part 1: Balancing and Steering - http://www.soundrider.com/current/nov11 ... ider-1.htm
Part 2: Braking Basics - http://www.soundrider.com/current/dec11 ... ider-2.htm
Part 3: Cornering Basics - http://www.soundrider.com/current/1201/Good_Rider-3.htm
Part 4: Special Braking Situations - http://www.soundrider.com/current/1202/Good_Rider-4.htm

When you have a few hours...or maybe days, there are more articles. I did a search on their archives on the keyword "corner". Here's what I found. http://www.google.com/cse?cx=partner-pu ... gsc.page=1

Page 1 looked pretty interesting...and there are 9 more pages...

Chris

[born1928]

Sounds to me as if you lack confidence in your own ability. I''m 83 and ever so often I still like to go to an empty parking lot and practice tight turns, left and right, at low and medium speeds. It's called PLP and it does pay off as your confidence builds the more you practice. The details on how you should get the most of PLP is mentioned in the various previously mentioned

[cav86sv01burg?]

.? Where are the twisters in Fl.

[Aladinbama]

This is the basis to most of our fears; The 4 mph brain -
http://www.soundrider.com/archive/safet ... _brain.htm

It all comes down to knowledge, experience, and practice. Read, Ride, and Review! I think something that many forget in the learning curve, make sure you . Afterall, it's all about enjoying the ride! If you don't, might happen! LOL

[bigfoot]

First, ride your own ride.

I would suggest that when you ride the twisties you keep your body position leaning slightly forward and your head should be fairly close to the inside mirror as you negotiate the turn.
Just doing those 2 things will assist you in negotiating the twisties considerably faster.
Target fixation is every riders worst enemy.
I always try to keep my head up, and my focus at least 30' in front of me (the further the better) in turns and while coming to a stop.
"look down go down".

Slow speed maneuvering is different than high speed twisties.
You really should be proficient at both.

Finally, ride your own ride.

[SPS Tools]

One trick I learned on the 650 is to use POWER mode. This provides a touch more throttle feel for cornering.

[Jon_C]

I'm not the OP, but thanks for all those links. I just bought Proficient Motorcycling on e-bay for $6.97.

[rulis]

KEITH CODE
A TWIST OF THE WRIST
THE BASICS OF HIGH-PERFORMANCE MOTORCYCLE RIDING

You can download the e-book here: [Edit by mod to remove copyrighted material link.]

[mikeyMarine]

.? Where are the twisters in Fl.

the wal mart entrance road in bartow

[paulcbrowne]

While it deals with low speed maneuvers, much that the DVD "Ride Like a Pro" contains instruction that is also very useful at higher speeds when riding "twisties." It's basically what motorcycle cops get trained for. I had a bit of a hard time "getting my groove back" after an accident that left me with two months of recuperation and new bike. The big point that they make is to look where you want to go. They combine this with throttle and rear brake application techniques to control the attitude of the bike.

What I found was that, by following their exercises, I became much smoother in ALL riding circumstances. I highly recommend this DVD because it brings to life very vividly the techniques in all of the good books listed above.

[WNC Burgster]

KEITH CODE
A TWIST OF THE WRIST
THE BASICS OF HIGH-PERFORMANCE MOTORCYCLE RIDING

You can download the e-book here: [Edit by mod to remove copyrighted material link.]

+1

[MacDoc]

Just to re-assure the OP the Burgman is VERY good in the twisties and can embarrass many bikes.
If riding hard I do use power mode and make full use of the big brakes going in then power out of the corner.
Because you are always in the correct gear you have a lot of advantages over likes that have to shift.

If you read this review you'll see the surprise of the reviews - this article convinced me to get a maxi scoot and have never regretted it -

http://www.onewheeldrive.net/2006/10/04 ... i-burgman/

this in particular I found so true with the 650

n the twists the Burgman, surprisingly despite its mass, is having an easier time of it, with its power mode Kevin can make better use of the engine’s compression braking and then torque out of the corners with better pickup. If this were a race, rather than a frolic there would be no losing the Suzuki. For a while Kevin’s even switched to manual mode, but futzing with the buttons becomes bothersome. The Burgman’s suspension is a bit more settled through here too, taking up the bumps and wallows better – it’s a more refined experience.

Eventually things settle down and we pull into a rest stop for a bike switch, gales of laughter, and conversation as to how the scooters, an advised use of the term, fare when thoroughly “tested”. Giovanni puts it best, “I’m shocked. I’d say you were doing 80% of a sportbike’s pace.” Suddenly it’s hard to see these as mere “scooters”, let’s drop the pretense and call them “bikes” – that will certainly make the guys at Honda and Suzuki happy won’t it?

Both the bikes are nimble in a way that makes you wonder about the efficacy of sportbike design. In “automatic motorcycle” land, the center of gravity is mere inches off the ground with the engines and transmissions of each bike lying in their bases. On these tight and twisting roads either the Burgman or the Silverwing can bruise the ego of any cruiser and should the spirit take you, even a few sport bikes.

And I was surprised coming from a nimble rd400. It's not what I bought the Burgman for but it's what I love it for....it's just plain fun in the twisties. Put a set of Metzler's on and get even more confidence.

Big key is not to try and take the corner at a high rate of speed but get to the corner quick, haul the bike down with the big binders and then use the power mode and accelerate hard going out - the engine and tranny are wonderfully designed for that with powerful engine braking and instant throttle response.

They do have a Burgman race team in Italy and you can have a lot of confidence in the machine but do make sure your tires are good.

[BlackDenis]

I recommend "Total Control" by Lee Parks. Very clear and readable. Lots of diagrams and pictures.

[Marv]

Thanks again for all the suggestions. I really enjoyed the commentary between the Burgman 650 and the Silverwing.

To summarize what I've read:
1. Look where you want to go.
2. Keep your chin up and point with your nose.
3. When leaned keep head even with the horizon.
4. Momentarily push handle bar opposite the way you want to start the lean.
5. Move head behind the inside mirror of turn.

Obviously I can negotiate turns but doing it slower then the group. I will practice the above suggestions but I'm left with two more questions.
How do you know how fast to enter a turn.
At what point do you start the turn.

[SPS Tools]

... How do you know how fast to enter a turn.
At what point do you start the turn.

I've generally found that the recommended speed (advisory traffic sign) is a decent starting point (assuming good weather/road conditions).
Learn about the "delayed apex". I usually start my lean when I can see the inside edge of this apex from the outside of the lane.

[Daboo]

I've done some silly (read stupid) riding in the past where I went extremely fast through the corners and I'm just lucky everything was perfect. No gravel or sand. No pot holes. Smooth pavement. No rocks. No dead animals just out of sight. But I think I was acting pretty dumb. I was counting on things to be perfect, and I was riding on public roads and on roads I'd never been on before.

There's a couple of cornering techniques out there that help me a lot. First, it is to always look to the exit of the turn. If you're doing that, you can see the entire turn and you will adjust your speed accordingly.

The second is if you can't see the exit, look to what you can see...and adjust your speed to fit that.

David Hough I think, writes about how he was going on a twisty mountain road when he encountered a mini-van parked in the lane just around the bend. The occupants had gotten out to take a picture of a deer or something. He couldn't see it till he was committed to the turn and going too fast. Luckily, he made it through okay and was able to write about it.

I've hit some nice fun twisty roads in our mountains around here. The ride up to Mt. St. Helens on Windy Ridge is a technical motorcyclist's dream. One turn after another and all of them tight. No sweepers. But I was glad the last time through there that I had not been pushing it. On more than one corner, I found a lot of rock that had fallen off the rock faces and was in my lane. If I had been going too fast, I would've lost it...and there are few guard rails. It's a long way over the edge.

Chris

[rustynail]

Don't ride faster than you can see (stop). That is, no faster than your limit point of observation, or vanishing point of the road. If your Harley buddies are doing that, you don't want to keep up with them anyway. Seriously. Be the bigger man and make it home every day.

You can still have a LOT of fun riding within your vanishing point and regulatory speed limit. Advisory speed limits are made for cars.

I prefer late apex, a bit of trail braking, and heavy throttle out. Usually, I'm good at near double advisory speed. 25-30 mph corners on a 55 mph road are my favorite . Some people like what's called "the pace" which is finding a smooth rhythm in the corners - perfect apex every time. That's fun in the sweepers or 40-45 mph corners on a 55 mph road.

I late apex in tight corners and ride "the pace" in sweepers where double the advisory would be over the regulatory speed.

Early apex is dangerous and will cause you to go wide when you exit the corner nearly every time.