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Sliders & the frustration they've brought me. I have found my answer

6K views 43 replies 13 participants last post by  westnash 
#1 ·
I am sharing this as information only and i know many have mixed feelings on this but its working for me when nothing else has.

I used a very very small amount of Hi-Temp wheel bearing grease on the ramps in the variator and much to my surprise now 1500 miles later (which is 1300 more than I've ever made it before) they have yet to flip on me. I am just as happy as I can be and have looked at 500 mile mark, again at 1000 and this weekend at the 1500 mile point and no grease has been slung out either. Again I used just enough to wet the ramps with no excess and its just working fantastic.

I've literrally tried everything else and read a post where someone used WD-40 and had success. I am so glad I tried this and just please as everything its working. Sliders really are awesome and transform this scooter! :grin
 
#2 ·
Keep us posted on how it works LONG term. Sounds like someone needs to take their Vairiator and have the ramp areas coated with a micro thin layer of some type of super slick DRY bondable coating.
 
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#7 ·
Yeah and mine were the same two that kept flipping. I used such a small amount of grease to that I can't believe it's doing the trick - I still can't figure out what they are getting hung on that was allowing them to flip. Why the grease is helping? Like the X-Files the truth is out there but I still don't know why LOL.....

I'll keep everyone updated.
 
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#8 ·
Patrick, i believe somethings not quite smooth in the cvt movement or the sliders' ramps are a bit asymmetrical. I wouldn't go too far from home relying on that thin grease layer.
 
#9 ·
Yeah that's my fear honestly, gotta a long ride about 400 miles away planned this weekend and thinking of taking the Helix because if it flips that will be when it does LOL
 
#12 ·
It's a 400cc thumper. There are limits to what you are going to accomplish and sliders/rollers aren't going to make it a different machine. I think a lot of the performance claims associated with sliders are for very narrow expectations in very specific circumstances. For those cases it appears to make a difference. In my case, I was looking for lower RPM's at 70-80 mph cruise. I used to spend a lot of time in that condition and I felt better about how the Burg ran with sliders.


In my case, I find the transmission more compliant with sliders, i.e. RPMS and transmission operation seems more fluid with sliders. With rollers I find the transmission seems to be less resilient and more locked in to a specific ratio. The locked in behavior offers a sense of better 'roll on' performance. I'm not sure the performance is any better but you feel the transitions more. Sliders give you a 'squishier' (i.e. smoother) feel to the transmission.


CAVEAT LECTOR: any discussion of slider vs roller perceptions are going to hugely affected by current state of the transmission. If you want good objective observations, you need to have pristine plates, front and back, a pretty fresh belt, new sliders/rollers and recent CVT attention to lubricants, bearings, various sleeves and springs. Only then can you start making somewhat valid observations.


TANGENT: regarding OP's experience with a little grease on the ramp plate, I believe my current experience with my clutch (flawless, smooth, behavior regardless of how I abuse it) is the result of slight contamination of the pad/bell surface by some migratory grease when I last rebuilt my driven plate assembly. Not a recommendation, just an observation. BTW - my clutch currently has 70K+ miles on it and, from the current level of wear, I can expect at least another 70K before replacement seems likely.
 
#13 · (Edited)
I've got a 08 Burg 400, bought in 2012 with 11k miles, now has 26K miles. I put 18 gram Dr Pulley Sliders on it about 6 months after I bought it, and it had a very noticeable increase in performance and driveability. It's really sweet zooming around town, and it's great on the freeway, it's got a Givi windshield, so no problem cruising at 80, 90 or even 100 mph. I take long trips around Florida with no problem, maybe 200 to 300 miles at a time. I've never had any problem with the sliders flipping or anything like that. I put them in as directed, dry, no lube, polish the edge of the ramp. and they work perfect. The easiest and simplest way to mod the scooter, best bang for the buck, and most reliability. Then about a year ago I put in some 16 gram Dr Pulley sliders, and performance is even much better. AT Wide Open Throttle between 40 mph to 70 mph, the rpms are at about 7,000, really good. cruising at 40 it's around 4,000, cruising at 70 it's around 7,000, cruising at 100 it's around 8,500 at the redline, which is about as fast as it will go. I've been on a long stretch of downhill road and got it up to 105 into the Red Line a little. I love the way it runs, very sweet and smooth. I can cruise at high speed for hours. I have to stop for gas every 120 to 130 miles.
I have taken the 18 gram sliders that I previously had in the scooter, and modified them by drilling out the brass inside to reduce thier weight to 11.5 to 12 grams each. I am going to install them within the next few weeks, and see what performance improvement I get. I am hoping to get to about 8,000 rpm at Wide Open Throttle between 40mph to 70 mph.
My sliders have been frustration free. I love them. I could not do without them!
 
#16 ·
I have taken the 18 gram sliders that I previously had in the scooter, and modified them by drilling out the brass inside to reduce thier weight to 11.5 to 12 grams each. I am going to install them within the next few weeks, and see what performance improvement I get.
Unless you are Manolis, there's no special need to do this. That would likely overdo the shifting.
 
#18 ·
To cliffyk - My 08' Burgman 400 IS an "07'+". I think the problem with the "flippers" is that the people who are putting them in don't know what they are doing. Are they properly lubricating the sliding bushing in the center of the variator, and are they using the proper lubricant? The outer variator disk has to be able to slide very freely, because if it should hang even in the slightest, the sliders could get loose on the ramp and flip. Be SURE that you have a professional do your work, not a novice. I've been working on all types of bikes since 1968 and I know quite a few things about them.

To Bolzen - It's impossible to "overdue shifting" because it does not shift, it is a variable ratio belt drive transmission. The engine loves to rev, I can cruise all day long at 90 to 95 mph with the tachometer on 8,000 rpm, and it does not hurt the engine a bit. I use 10W-40 Synthetic Motorcycle Motor Oil to take care of the engine, and everything else is very well maintained, as I do my own maintenance.

To westnash - If you are a performance orientated rider, the Suzuki Burgman 400 comes broken from the factory. The simple modification of putting in lighter sliders in place of the rollers is simply to make the scooter perform better, like it should have performed in the first place. My 08' 400 is so much better to ride since the variator modification that is is just unbelievable, a very big difference for the better. I have faster take off, faster top end, and gas mileage has not suffered. I think it is a win win win situation all the way around. And FYI, I am still running the stock clutch. I might go to a Dr Pulley HIT Clutch at a later date, but as of right now, I don't need to.
 
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#21 ·
To cliffyk - My 08' Burgman 400 IS an "07'+". I think the problem with the "flippers" is that the people who are putting them in don't know what they are doing. Are they properly lubricating the sliding bushing in the center of the variator, and are they using the proper lubricant? The outer variator disk has to be able to slide very freely, because if it should hang even in the slightest, the sliders could get loose on the ramp and flip. Be SURE that you have a professional do your work, not a novice. I've been working on all types of bikes since 1968 and I know quite a few things about them.
To E.D. - The sliders (and stock rollers) are made of "self-lubricating" plastic (Delrin, UHMWPE, Teflon, Nylatron, etc.), there is no need to lubricate them.

They should be installed dry. Though a very small bit of some dry lubricant will cause no harm--it won't do anything beneficial either and will be quickly displaced anyway. My '03 400 has been running the same set of DRP sliders (installed dry) for over 45k miles.

One definitely does not want to use any sort of tacky/sticky grease or oil as such products would trap gobs of belt "dust" and make a gummy black mess.

FWIW, I have been working on "all kinds of bikes" since 1956 so I've got 10+ years on you :smile

----------------------------------------------------
¹ - DRP Sliders are made of Nylatron PA6 (PA46). It's coefficient of friction on dry steel is 0.16 or so--the same as lubricated bronze on steel.
 
#19 ·
Well, i would not want the sliders shift at 8000 rpm, that would be too late, so a machine with heavier sliders can eventually accelerate faster. Same thing if you upshift too late with the manual gearbox.
 
#20 ·
I think I know what you meant; however though a machine with heavier sliders has the potential to travel at a higehr top speed it will not accelerate faster than a scoot' with lighter sliders.

Running four 15g and our 18g sliders in my '03 400 "cost" me about 5 mph top speed. When running eight 18g sliders the practical top speed¹ (actual via GPS, not indicated) was just a bit over 90 mph.

With the 4-15g/4-18g paring the practical top speed is 85 actual mph; and the bike takes less time to get to 85 than it did with eight 18g sliders...

-----------------------------------
¹ - By practical top speed I mean the fastest speed attainable maintaining meaningful acceleration, not how fast it can go "if you lean on the throttle and wait for it".
 
#24 · (Edited)
^ This is it! :smile

that was my concern when E.D. decided to reduce slider weight to 11.5 to 12 grams.

Why people think if "it is a variable ratio belt drive transmission", it does not shift. Why can't it shift through an infinite number of gears. One always can find the instant gear ratio for any pitch radius at any moment. Can't guess what a point people make here :confused:
 
#25 ·
^ This is it!

that was my concern when E.D. decided to reduce slider weight to 11.5 to 12 grams.

Why people think if "it is a variable ratio belt drive transmission", it does not shift. Why can't it shift through an infinite number of gears. One always can find the instant gear ratio for any pitch radius at any moment. Can't guess what a point people make here.
Yes I saw that assertion--of course it shifts, it just does shifts continuously up and down within its range--and automatically according to load; which is even neater!

That was an issue I had but never voiced with the lever operated "patbox". Even if it were fantastically more efficient I don't think many would trade manual shifting for same. Can you imagine how busy one would be moving that lever about (all while twisting the throttle to keep engine revs matched to vehicle speed) to achieve what the stock CVT does "automagically"?
 
#26 ·
I tried to raise a question -- with 18 g DPS, HiT and a lighter bell i'm almost positive the scoot accelerates 0-60 out of 7 sec. With 15-16 g it can probably do for 6.2-6.5 sec. It's a 490 lb machine with 230 lb rider. Where on Earth would i like to interfere in the work of the CVT?
 
#28 ·
That was the question to Manolis earlier i didn't get a clear answer for.

If i understand his idea right, he tries to impart an airplane behavior to the scooter movement. Pressing the box lever and holding the ratio against the natural CVT urge to upshift should mirror holding the plane on brakes and waiting for the engine to come to its peak power output. Releasing the lever corresponds to releasing the brakes on the plane.

According to the calculations, also shown in the graphs, the scooter should move faster than with the normal CVT operation.

I said i didn't mind to test the device and either confirm or refute this theory, but the implementation of that mechanism with the Burgie CVT design, both '06 and '07 models, would likely cost more than the new bike.
 
#29 ·
To cliffyk- I don't think you have anything on me at all, you don't even understand what I wrote in plain english. I Never said anything about putting any lubricant on the sliders. Even in my first post in this thread, I plainly said exactly what I do, I put them on DRY. Now please go back and read my posts more carefully. Thank You.
To cliffy and Bolzen- The Variable Ratio Belt Drive has an infinite number of ratios, it just smoothly transitions through them. I definitely do not recommend to mix the weights of the rollers or sliders. The heavier ones will push out with greater centrifugal force than the lighter ones, and could contribute to the slider flipping issue. Less pressure on the lighter ones is less pressure to hold them in place. About the drive ratios, with any given set of sliders in the variator, the low speed ratio is achieved when the variator halves are as far apart as possible, this is a fixed ratio when the variator is at the lowest speed position and the sliders are fully retracted to their "Home Position". Then as variator speed increases, the sliders move out by centrifugal force, and force the variator halves to come all the way together, which at that point is a fixed ratio, the highest gear ratio. Changing the weight of the slider weights does not change the starting gear ratio, nor does it change the highest gear ratio, it only changes the rpm/power curve of the transmission. Heavier weight sliders will increase RPMs through the gear range. As an example, to use some round numbers, say with 19 gram sliders you gently cruise 40 mph at 4000 rpm, but you goose it wide open and hold it wide open the rpms jump to and hold steady at about 6000 rpm, and you have good acceleration. Now the same thing, but with 16 gram sliders you gently cruise 40 mph at 4300 rpm, but you goose it wide open and hold it wide open the rpm's jump to and hold steady at about 7000 rpm, and you have better acceleration, because the engine is up in the strong part of it's power band. The advantage of the sliders is that they allow a lower starting gear ratio, and they allow a higher high gear ratio, and in the middle of the speed range they give good cruising gear ratios.
I'm going to try the 12 gram sliders to see if I can get the maximum performance out of the engine by keeping it up in the upper strong part of the power band. The rpm's don't hurt it a bit, it just runs and runs and runs. I'm a performance rider, and I don't baby my baby, I punch it wide open as much as I can, and it's good at jack rabbit starts.
 
#31 ·
I am just as happy as I can be because I did slightly grease the sliders and ramps and its been almost 2000 miles without 1 single slider flipping. This is 1886 miles further than I've ever had them go before!

This includes the 800 miles weekend to PC Beach, FL. Just wanted to update everyone.
 
#32 ·
To E.D. -- yes, but it looks like you are not quite up on what it was all about. Here you can find the details and that could be what you need in reality :D

Sorry, Patrick for hijacking the thread. It's all for the sake of Science Revolution in the CVT :)
 
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#35 ·
Interesting, I put 33K+ miles on my 07 400 with (2) sets of sliders & never had a problem with them.
 
#36 ·
Bolzen, I was quite correct in what I said, and I stated exactly what I meant to say.
The main essence of what I said was:
The Variable Ratio Belt Drive has an infinite number of ratios, it just smoothly transitions through them. Changing the weight of the slider weights does not change the starting gear ratio, nor does it change the highest gear ratio, it only changes the rpm/power curve of the transmission. The advantage of the sliders is that they allow a lower starting gear ratio, and they allow a higher high gear ratio, and in the middle of the speed range they give good cruising gear ratios.

I do not have time now, but I am going to discuss this issue of how to solve the problem of the flipping sliders with westnash, in the near future. The sliders are not meant to flip, and they will NOT flip when installed correctly and everything is working right, as Desert Rat has posted above. Mine have never flipped and your won't either, when they are installed correctly. westnash, did you put the sliders in yourself? And if so, tell us the exact procedure that you used, I have a feeling important steps were left out.
 
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