400 cranks but no start - Suzuki Burgman Forum
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post #1 of 20 (permalink) Old 11-19-2016, 07:21 PM Thread Starter
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400 cranks but no start

Hello everyone,

K4 Burgman 400 with a problem. Recently procured from a friend, she's been sitting a while. Picked her up cheap because she won't start. Figured I could try my magic touch and see if I could resurrect her from the dead. So here's the low down: She cranks fine, but will not fire over. I have:

1. Drained fuel tank of all old fuel.
2. Checked fuel injector nozzle and cleaned.
3. Fuel pump works fine and pressurizes injector.
4. No computer codes displayed.
5. Checked for spark.
6. Compression blows finger off of spark plug hole, although I have not actually measured it.
7. Checked fuel injector solenoid action (clicks with a battery); does not squirt when cranking.
8. All fuses and relays are good.
9. Battery is good, tested and charged.

To the best of my knowledge, what I seem to not be getting is fuel. I have removed the fuel injector from the intake and cranked the bike to see if I could see a fuel spray from the injector and I do not. From what I have been able to spray into the intake of starting fluid, this is also not enough for it to start, or even blubber for that matter. So having spark and some compression the starting fluid didn't make it catch; although I had to remove the world to spray it down there, so it may have evaporated before I could get her cranked over.

When it cranks, it also seems to crank slowly. Although I must say, I've never owned a Burgman, so this may be normal, but it just seems naturally "slow" to me compared to my other bikes. At first I thought maybe the starter was going out and had an internal short drawing too much current, but even with a piggyback start from a car battery the cranking does not increase in speed and the voltage does not drop significantly from the battery, so I don't think this is likely. I tried measuring voltage at the fuel injector, but of course to the best of my knowledge it's operated on pulses, so my readings probably meant diddly squat. But I did see SOME voltage there when cranking.

I've tinkered with it off and on for about a month, and I'm nearly at my wits end. Any ideas or suggestions? Bad ECU?

2004 K4 Burgman 400
17,200 miles
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post #2 of 20 (permalink) Old 11-19-2016, 09:42 PM
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I read what you said about a "good, and tested" battery.
Nevertheless, battery is suspect from a 'sitting for awhile scooter'.
EFI systems like a good battery.
Connect a new battery and try again. (if nothing else, this old scooter will make good use of it, if ever you get it started)
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Last edited by stig; 11-19-2016 at 09:44 PM.
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post #3 of 20 (permalink) Old 11-19-2016, 10:49 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stig View Post
I read what you said about a "good, and tested" battery.
Nevertheless, battery is suspect from a 'sitting for awhile scooter'.
EFI systems like a good battery.
Connect a new battery and try again. (if nothing else, this old scooter will make good use of it, if ever you get it started)
Stig
Stig,

The battery in it is not the old battery; that one has long since become a doorstop. It has a new battery. I have also used jumper cables from a known good car battery, just in case this new one wasn't putting out enough amps. Same result.

2004 K4 Burgman 400
17,200 miles
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post #4 of 20 (permalink) Old 11-20-2016, 01:35 AM
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Pull off the front cover to access the spark plug, remove the spark plug, squirt some gas into the spark plug hole reinsert the spark plug and then try to start it. If it starts, your problem is no fuel. If it doesnt start, recheck the spark and plug and then compression. If compression is low check engine oil & coolant, then check the valve lash on all valves in the engine head. If you have fuel, compression and good spark at the right time, it will run. Also check that the air cleaner is clean to be sure the throttle Body is getting good airflow.
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Al in Sunny Tampa Bay Florida (St Petersburg)
2006 Burgman AN650 K6 White (The White Knight)
2008 Burgman AN400 K8 Red (The Red Baron)
1979 Honda CB 750 Silver
1979 Penneys 50 Moped Red
1974 Yamaha 360 MX Yellow
1973 Yamaha 80 MX Silver
1972 Honda QA 50 Red
1971 Kaw Bighorn 350 Enduro Brown
1970 Kaw H1 500 Red
1968 Kaw 120 Scrambler Red
1968 Kaw 120 Scrambler Blue
As far as the cages go, I've had all kinds,
but Toyota's Rule, no doubt!
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post #5 of 20 (permalink) Old 11-20-2016, 10:26 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by E.D. View Post
Pull off the front cover to access the spark plug, remove the spark plug, squirt some gas into the spark plug hole reinsert the spark plug and then try to start it. If it starts, your problem is no fuel. If it doesnt start, recheck the spark and plug and then compression. If compression is low check engine oil & coolant, then check the valve lash on all valves in the engine head. If you have fuel, compression and good spark at the right time, it will run. Also check that the air cleaner is clean to be sure the throttle Body is getting good airflow.
Thanks; that was the next plan of action. I was hoping to at least get a sign of life out of her before I pulled off the world to get to the valve cover, but it's looking like that's where I might be headed.

I had already pulled the plug and squirted some starting fluid in the hole; still no start. I also shot some down the intake and into the throttle body, but still no start. Oil is good, coolant is good. The most I've gotten out of this thing is one brief, sharp backfire that only happened once. So I'm fearing that this bike may have skipped timing. I will know once I get the head cover off.

2004 K4 Burgman 400
17,200 miles
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post #6 of 20 (permalink) Old 11-20-2016, 05:49 PM
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Use an accurate screw in compression tester to check the cylinder compression. With a DRY cylinder, hold the throttle wide open while cranking with a strong battery.
The specified compression is NORMAL 142 to 154 PSI, LOW LIMIT 88 PSI.
I would not want to see more than a 20% drop in compression, or no less than 114 PSI at the very least.
The test will not be valid if the engine does not crank at the normal rate.
If you get a low reading, squirt about a teaspoon of engine oil down into the spark plug hole, then test again. If the compression increases significantly, it indicates bad rings. If the compression does not increase, or only slightly, it indicates bad valves or bad head gasket or need valve adjustment. Head gasket failures are very rare on these engines.

Pistons with rings are available in standard size or an oversize. If you decide you need to go to an oversize piston, you must take the new piston and the old cylinder to the machine shop so that they can bore and hone the cylinder to an exact fit and clearance to the new piston. Then use new gaskets upon reassembly.

Al in Sunny Tampa Bay Florida (St Petersburg)
2006 Burgman AN650 K6 White (The White Knight)
2008 Burgman AN400 K8 Red (The Red Baron)
1979 Honda CB 750 Silver
1979 Penneys 50 Moped Red
1974 Yamaha 360 MX Yellow
1973 Yamaha 80 MX Silver
1972 Honda QA 50 Red
1971 Kaw Bighorn 350 Enduro Brown
1970 Kaw H1 500 Red
1968 Kaw 120 Scrambler Red
1968 Kaw 120 Scrambler Blue
As far as the cages go, I've had all kinds,
but Toyota's Rule, no doubt!
John 3:16
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Last edited by E.D.; 11-20-2016 at 06:03 PM.
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post #7 of 20 (permalink) Old 11-20-2016, 11:18 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks E.D.. I should go on record saying I'm not new to mechanics or diagnosis, and a compression test would have been one of the first things on my list if my friend wasn't borrowing it. But, the Burgman is a different animal from anything I've ever had in my stable, and all bikes have common failures and erks that can be easy to check before shoe-horning my body into weird positions. It would have been very nice to have just found an unplugged sensor, but alas, no dice. :/ Once I have the tester back I'll get some values. The service manual states 128 PSI as normal for a 2004; I'm guessing this is including the correction for the decompression cam?

Took another look at it today; used a car battery hooked in tandem with jumper cables to ensure my batts together had enough balls to crank her. Even still, seemed to have a slow crank with no improvement. Voltage drop wasn't extreme; but while cranking it did drop to about 12 volts. I also noticed that the headlights did not go out entirely when cranking, but went extremely dim along with the instrument lights. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the headlights supposed to cut off completely while cranking until the starter button is released again? Or do these scoots not have that feature in 2004?

I'm taking a look at the starter brushes and armature, as I have a sneaky feeling the starter may have an internal short that's drawing too much current. My jumper cables were getting a bit warm while cranking, leading me to believe somehow it's drawing excessive current trying to start. All connections were good, clean, and tight with no open circuits, so I believe this may be an internal issue to the starter. Since I have nearly everything off to do a valve adjustment anyway, I'll be doing that soon as well and checking the auto decompression cam and timing. Who knows what the last owner did to it; it could very well have lost timing if the cam chain tensioner went south like all my Hondas seem to do.

2004 K4 Burgman 400
17,200 miles
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post #8 of 20 (permalink) Old 11-21-2016, 10:28 AM
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Compression test is useless with the pre-2007 400's (I don't know about after 2007). They have a rotary compression release that releases the exhaust valve early when the engine is starting. If you put a compression tester in there and whizz the starter, then you'll read the released compression- somewhere between 120 and 88 PSI. And it has nothing to do with the actual compression unless you somehow jam the release closed. Mine only reads 80 PSI while starting, and that's after a complete top end rebuild. It starts fine and has plenty of power, no smoke, etc so I know the compression is fine.

I have a K4 and my headlights stay on while cranking. They dim a little, but not a tremendous amount- sounds like your starter motor may drawing too much current, lowering the battery voltage and then the ECU won't light stuff up (injectors, spark). Either the starter motor is bad, or it could be that something is really stiff in there, and the starter motor is struggling, which would also draw a whole bunch of current. You say it's been sitting? It might need a squirt of oil in the cylinder- the piston and rings and cylinder may have some corrosion, which would make things stiff. Try pulling the variator filter and put a wrench on the variator bolt and turn it over by hand- it should be relatively easy to turn and you should feel some elastic resistance as it compresses.

Regarding cranking speed- while the starter motor is active on my bike, it seems to run at about 4 rotations per second, or about 2 compression cycles per second. But mine won't do that for more than about 2 seconds before it starts...

Right now, I'm thinking you have a clogged injector, though. If you pull it out, it should squirt while cranking, for sure.
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post #9 of 20 (permalink) Old 11-21-2016, 10:59 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks Squeazel. I have indeed pulled the injector and cranked the scoot, and I do not get any fuel out. But, when I directly apply battery voltage to the injector terminals, the solenoid does indeed click and whatever residual fuel was in the injector seems to have come out the tip. The tip is clean with no visible gunk. I have not applied direct voltage to the injector while pressurized though, due to obvious fire concerns with a sparking battery.

If yours turns over about 4 times a second, I'm lucky to get 1.5 if I'm hearing the compression puffs correctly. When I had the spark plug out checking for spark, it still cranked very slowly. My guess is with you on the starter; I pulled it yesterday (along with a black widow spider.....eek) and will have it pulled apart after work this evening. SOMETHING is drawing a lot of current in there.

2004 K4 Burgman 400
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post #10 of 20 (permalink) Old 11-21-2016, 02:59 PM
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Yeah, smart not using pressurized fuel line and a sparking battery!

You might not be able to tell, but there may be a whole bunch of arcing evidence on the commutator if there's a short. If you have a multimeter, check the resistance to the armature for each winding of the commutator- it should be insulated from the armature- and check the resistance from one winding to all the others - they also should be insulated from each other.

Good luck and let us know what you find!
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